Reading the Classics discussion

This is where we will discuss The Mill on the Floss. I chose the Oxford World Classics edition to help me understand Eliot's many social, political, literary, etc. references.

Thanks Lorri

I bought the same edition on Kindle. It was tricky to find it. I had to search for "Mill on the Floss Oxford" in the Kindle Store for it to come up. On Amazon. $4.79 I think.

Linda_G wrote: "I bought the same edition on Kindle. It was tricky to find it. I had to search for "Mill on the Floss Oxford" in the Kindle Store for it to come up. On Amazon. $4.79 I think."

That's the one! I paid about the same for my Kindle version. I "discovered" the Oxford World Classics through Brian and Washington Square. I buy these versions (instead of the Project Gutenberg version) when the "extras" seem important to me.

I did the math and looked at the calendar and suggest this Group Read Discussion Schedule for MOF:

Book 1: 118 pages Friday, April 15
Book 2: 57 pages Thursday, April 21
Book 3: 69 pages Friday, April 29
Book 4: 24 pages Thursday, May 5
Book 5: 60 pages Thursday, May 12
Book 6: 112 pages Wednesday, May 25
Book 7 & Conclusion: 39 pages Tuesday, May 31

Ok, thanks Lori

Preliminary -

I finished the novelette by Elizabeth Gaskel, "Moorland Cottage". The parallels with the beginning of "Mill on the Floss" are striking.

However, what I found more striking was the similarity in the story line with one of the main story lines in Anthony Trollop's "The Way We Live Now" which was one of his later works.

Anthony Trollop -
I guess I have to be careful to keep lines short, the end of lines when I use the app are cut off.

Prelimiary ii -

George Elliot uses an English Expression in the early chapters that I have encountered several times in English novels, but that I am never quite sure what it means.

When she is introducing a new character, a gentleman, she says of him -

"He was all that he could be".

Well, I need to go back and find the exact line before we begin our discussion on April 15.

Arghh, it did it again but on a short line.

The quote was to the effect

"He was all
..that he should be"

I guess I need to stop using my ipad
... to comment

If the group prefers to read The Mill on the Floss in one month, we could change the schedule to this one:

Books 1 and 2: 175 pages Friday, April 15
Books 3, 4, and 5: 153 pages Saturday, April 23
Books 6, 7, and Conclusion: 151 pages Friday, April 29

Either way is fine with me. I've read Book 1 and set it aside for now. I did not want to get too far ahead.

Today, I finished Book the Second and am relieved to leave the "Golden Gates of childhood" behind.

From the start I wondered who the narrator is supposed to be. Could it be Maggie looking back and telling her story? I am enjoying the writing style. It feels reminiscent or nostalgic.

A bildungsroman is a novel that depicts the psychological and moral development of its protagonist. The Mill on the Floss is unusual in that it depicts the development of both Maggie and Tom and uses references to The Pilgrim’s Progress to chart their development. As a bildungsroman, the novel explores the variables of learning and the nature of goodness, virtue, wickedness, and evil. Is Maggie demonic, wicked, a devil, a witch, or a Medusa? Why does Eliot make these allusions? Is Maggie the representation of evil and Tom of good? Or vice versa?

What symbols, motifs, or themes have captured your attention and you would like to discuss?

Jerilyn wrote: "From the start I wondered who the narrator is supposed to be. Could it be Maggie looking back and telling her story? I am enjoying the writing style. It feels reminiscent or nostalgic."

Yes. The narrator establishes the story as both a memory and a dream. She is “dreaming that I was standing on the bridge in front of Dorlcote Mill, as it looked one February afternoon many years ago” pp. 8-9. For the most part, I also enjoy the writing style. But, it also exasperates me at times.

I think we will have to check back on this one at the end. I have a different idea as to who is "looking back"

Lorri wrote: "A bildungsroman is a novel that depicts the psychological and moral development of its protagonist. The Mill on the Floss is unusual in that it depicts the development of both Maggie and Tom and us..."

Hummm. I will have to think about this. I read the book more in terms of what I have read about the author's nature.

Is Maggie the author's own self?? a girl that does not fit the "pretty" requirement for young women, nor the required quiet docile natures.

The comments by the mother and aunts about Maggie, her dark skin, her straight shaggy hair, her dark looks, her impulsive nature, are really a bit cruel. I was proud of Maggie when she rebelled and cut her hair.

Her brother is much the 'attached to reality" personality. He also has growth, but not so much as Maggie.

The. mother is hopeless.

It is amazing how particularly the mother and to only a slightly lesser extent the aunts, perceive life. only in terms of their domestic lives and items.

I love the beginning and the descriptions of the English towns and countryside. The writing completely captures the English love of pastoral beauty.

The conversations in the first chapters are wonderful, I think. The ridiculous tossing of the conversation back and forth with misunderstandings and cross purposes.

These conversations remind me of my father's family.

Linda_G wrote: "The conversations in the first chapters are wonderful, I think. The ridiculous tossing of the conversation back and forth with misunderstandings and cross purposes.

These conversations remind me ..."

A comment I wrote as I read is

"Mrs Tolliver thinks only terms of her family Mr tolliver thinks of how to prepare his son to do better, to be educated. They may as well be having two solitary conversations."

The conversations on page twelve as the "little wench" being "too cute" and the son not being up to intelligence level his father might have wished, are very telling about social attitudes about the expectations of sons and daughters.

The father says " he can already read as well as the parson" the mother follows with " But her hair won't curl " !!!

No wonder that little, bright Maggie has a tough time in this household. At least her father treasures her.

Education - the discussions of education are interesting. These men are the rising middle class. Mr. Tolliver wants more for his son and is willing to pay for education. But his own deficiencies make it impossible for him to maximize the expenditure on education.

Mill on the floss came too early for me, I am actually entangled in a Bleakhouse group-reading, which started the same day and still trying to finisch An american tragedy (=57%) although I managed to finish Doctor Shiwago as the last reading in this group. In knew that Don Quijote is a test for every group, I was one of two who finished it in another group. But I am looking forward to the next project in June or so.

Glad you sent a note Armin.
The group is operating very informally.
No real leader.

First Book - Chapter 11 - Maggie runs away
I found this chapter very moving.

I think the Tollivers would be placed in the
Upward moving middle class. Not educated but they are literate.
There are books in the home and the children can read.

With land, nice things in their home, they have a decent home
And there is ample food to eat.

Maggie escape to the Gypsies gives a vivid picture contrasting
The poor food of the Gypsies, poor clothes and almost desperate
Life. They clearly do not even have basic necessities. They lack the one
Amenity that the majority of Britains enjoy and that is "tea". The wealthy
Have the best teas, the poorer sorts only poor grades of tea. But almost all
Have some tea. Mrs' Tolliver is very proud of her Tea Service.

Poor Maggie, she slowly realizes the sad estate of the gypsies.
She becomes aware of her danger.
Fortunately the gypsies realized their best gain was in returning her.
I breathed a sign of relief when Maggie thought she really was
Headed for home and then so luckily spotted her father on the road.

Linda_G wrote: "Preliminary -

I finished the novelette by Elizabeth Gaskel, "Moorland Cottage". The parallels with the beginning of "Mill on the Floss" are striking.

However, what I found more striking was the ..."

Interesting.

Linda_G wrote: "Arghh, it did it again but on a short line.

The quote was to the effect

"He was all
..that he should be"

I guess I need to stop using my ipad
... to comment"

I wonder if this is colloquial for ordinary or neither less nor more than expected. Sometimes, when I read this phrase, I get the feeling it is a way to cut the high and mighty down to size. Saying they are nothing special.

Linda_G wrote: "I think we will have to check back on this one at the end. I have a different idea as to who is "looking back""

True. The narrator who is looking back is not named. Sometimes, I believe Eliot breaks into the narration and speaks directly to us, the reader, but I could be mistaken.

Linda_G wrote: "I love the beginning and the descriptions of the English towns and countryside. The writing completely captures the English love of pastoral beauty."

Yes.

Linda_G wrote: "The conversations in the first chapters are wonderful, I think. The ridiculous tossing of the conversation back and forth with misunderstandings and cross purposes.

These conversations remind me ..."

Yes. And miscommunication filled with cross purposes is also strikingly evident when Mr. Tulliver's expectations for Tom's education are contrasted with Mr. Stelling's. Both of these examples demonstrate Eliot's gift for writing psychological realism. Characters speak and behave according to their perspectives and values. And characters only change when circumstances and experiences change their perspectives and either deepen or change their values.

Linda_G wrote: "The conversations on page twelve as the "little wench" being "too cute" and the son not being up to intelligence level his father might have wished, are very telling about social attitudes about th..."

I agree that Eliot exposes narrow-minded gender expectations and roles. She also exposes narrow-minded parenting and religious expectations. It is interesting watching Maggie struggle with moral dilemmas like Children: obey your parents (even when their demands are wrong or immoral?), and since the command is to Love your neighbor as yourself, why are people so quick to condemn and punish others while indulging themselves?

Linda_G wrote: "Lorri wrote: "A bildungsroman is a novel that depicts the psychological and moral development of its protagonist. The Mill on the Floss is unusual in that it depicts the development of both Maggie ..."

I believe Maggie does share many traits with Mariane Evans. But Deconstruction is my go-to theory. I pay attention to language, intext references, and plot. For example, I noted her references and allusions to The Pilgrim's Progress so I read PP and see even more parallels.

Lorri wrote: "Linda_G wrote: "Arghh, it did it again but on a short line.

The quote was to the effect

"He was all
..that he should be"

I guess I need to stop using my ipad
... to comment"

I wonder if this ..."

Interesting take on this. Would love to ask a "native"

Lorri wrote: "Linda_G wrote: "The conversations in the first chapters are wonderful, I think. The ridiculous tossing of the conversation back and forth with misunderstandings and cross purposes.

These conversa..."

Well put.

Lorri wrote: "This is where we will discuss The Mill on the Floss. I chose the Oxford World Classics edition to help me understand Eliot's many social, political, literary, etc. references."

Here is the MLA 9 citation for all my MF quotes: Eliot, George. The Mill on the Floss. Edited by Gordon S. Haight, introduction and notes by Juliette Atkinson, Oxford World's Classics Kindle edition, Oxford UP, 2015.

In Book the First, Mr. Tulliver, referring to a group of books, claims: “but they’ve all got the same covers, and I thought they were all o’ one sample, as you may say. But it seems one mustn’t judge by th’ outside.” p. 18. For me, this quote establishes one of Eliot’s main themes: We mustn’t judge others by appearances alone. Eliot spends a great deal of the book showing the reader the perspectives, thoughts, and motives of the characters.

Mr. Tulliver speaking to Mr. Riley claims: “why, if I made him a miller an’ farmer, he’d be expectin’ to take to the Mill an’ the land, an’ a-hinting at me as it was time for me to lay by an’ think o’ my latter end. Nay, nay, I’ve seen enough o’ that wi’ sons. […] I shall give Tom an eddication an’ put him to a business, as he may make a nest for himself, an’ not want to push me out o’ mine” p. 16. This shows that Mr. Tulliver’s motives are selfish hoarding. He cannot even share his home, business, and profits with his son as a good father of that time was expected to do. Additionally, Mr. Tulliver’s court cases focus on preventing upriver persons from using the river even though engineers claim the usage will not adversely impact his mill. Mr. Tulliver is attempting to hoard the river. Both Mr. and Mrs. Tulliver are hoarders. Mrs. Tulliver keeps her best linens and things locked in a chest and cannot bear to use or part with them. Mrs. Tulliver’s relatives, the Dodsons, are also hoarders and refuse to part with anything of value to help the Tulliver family after their fall.

From the beginning, Tom’s ignorance is contrasted with Maggie’s acuteness ( or ‘cuteness). In Book the Second, Eliot reveals that Tom’s scholarly ignorance is due to an inability to comprehend the abstract without concrete examples or applications. Then Eliot makes this odd statement: “there was a visible improvement in Tom under this training; perhaps because he was not a boy in the abstract, existing solely to illustrate the evils of a mistaken education, but a boy made of flesh and blood, with dispositions not entirely at the mercy of circumstances.” p. 160. Then, I realized that Eliot expects the readers to associate Tom Tulliver with John Bunyan’s Ignorance from The Pilgrim’s Progress and notice both the similarities and differences. In other words, Tom is a well-rounded and much more complicated character than Ignorance.

Another of Eliot’s themes is exploring the nature of good and evil or virtue and wickedness. What makes some actions good and others wicked? According to whom? I believe Eliot uses binaries or contrasts to bring these abstract ideas to the surface so she may question and critique them. But, I believe Eliot is moving the reader toward the deeper truth that humans are a mixture of good and evil. Thomas means twin and implies duality. Maggie is described as a mixture of the “most unexpected ignorance as well as unexpected knowledge” and “her thoughts generally were the oddest mixture of clear-eyed acumen and blind dreams” p. 106. Thus, humans must continually choose good over evil, wheat over tares, and subdue temptations. I believe the snakes and Medusa personify the temptation to be evil or wicked rather than wickedness and evil themselves.

Thank you for the astute observations posted so far. I absolutely agree with the comments on the selfish character of Mr and Mrs Tolliver as parents. And I felt sure Maggie was coming to harm when she ran away. I hope boarding school will give her opportunities to discover her own talents and value as a good person, and not reinforce the rigid expectations of her mother.

I am struggling with the novel. There are lengthy passages that surpass my comprehension. I am reading a Gutenberg project digital edition, so there aren’t any explanatory notes.

I appreciate Eliot’s description of the educational system at the time of our story, or rather lack thereof.

Good to hear from you Jerilyn.

In some ways I agree that Maggie's parents and relations were pretty terrible, particularly the mother. But it is made clear that of her sisters, Mrs. Tolliver was very pretty but the slowest. And Mr. Tolliver said he preferred a wife with limited mental power !

That said, they were living in their times and social strata. They were probably not much different than their peers.

Mr Tolliver does love his daughter, as she is.

I am not on-board with the "selfish" characterization of the Tolliver parents ( although I am out-voted on this). I think they were doing what they were taught to do. Mrs' Tolliver did not have the capacity to do anything else.

From other sources, this was a period of great growth and changes in the educational possibilities in Great Britain. And the desire of the lower middle class to educate their children, above their own meager education was pervasive throughout Great Britain at the time.

Lorri wrote: "From the beginning, Tom’s ignorance is contrasted with Maggie’s acuteness ( or ‘cuteness). In Book the Second, Eliot reveals that Tom’s scholarly ignorance is due to an inability to comprehend the ..."

Tom's growth in the novel is contrasted with his stubbornness and his being overjudgmental of his sister. This seems to be a family trait on his mother's side. He does grow as a character but is also deeply flawed. He is tenacious and doesn't run away from the family problems.

I am not sure where everyone is in the novel.

But I am wondering what everyone thinks of Maggie's relationship with Phillip. He clearly loved her. Was he just a friend?

I wonder why Elliot created this threesome, Maggie, Tom and Phillip, with the unresolved conflict between Tom and Phillip.

Tom never relents, though Phillip would have liked to sidestep the problem all together. afterall, Phillip was not his father.

Jerilyn wrote: "Thank you for the astute observations posted so far. I absolutely agree with the comments on the selfish character of Mr and Mrs Tolliver as parents. And I felt sure Maggie was coming to harm when ..."

Hi, Jerilyn. I also struggled with the novel. Even now, I find it difficult to succinctly describe my thoughts about Eliot, her characters, and the book. I read mostly digital texts and love Project Gutenberg. But with Eliot and Henry James, I buy the fairly cheap Kindle Oxford World's Classics for their notes in helping me understand the texts. Nevertheless, MF is dense, multilayered, and filled with multiple themes, motifs, and symbols. Yet, I find MF fascinating and especially enjoy Eliot's explorations of morality.

Eliot's discussions on education are very interesting and, unfortunately, some of her critiques still apply. For example, spending too much time learning unimportant details, too much reliance on standardized education, and little effort to match curriculum with real-life post-school students' needs, interests, and abilities.

Although I have finished the novel, my discussion posts, so far, have been confined to Books 1-4. Today, I will continue into Book 5. I think we should wait to discuss Books 6-7 until next week. Then go on to the conclusion and final thoughts after that.

In Book the Fourth, Maggie is said to live in the “triple world of Reality, Books, and Waking Dreams” p. 255, so where do Tom and the other characters live? The Pilgrim’s Progress is presented as the narrator’s dream. Eliot opens MF as a dreamy remembrance and often describes situations of dreaming and waking. I believe this is her way of distinguishing the inner life of thoughts, musings, hopes, imaginings, and the decisions at the heart of motives as opposed to the outer life of actions, interactions, discourse, and surface appearances. I continue to believe that Eliot is demonstrating the folly of judging and punishing according to appearances alone and that mercy and forgiveness are worthier deeds.