Well Trained Mind Readers discussion

I thought I'd put this up for comments, even though we've all finished. I'm reading another book now about a seaman who had contact with Indians and he has some interesting views which I'd like to contrast. But we'll see ...... I'm kind of drowning in books at the moment.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this for sure. Did you find it a bit of a dredge to get through?

I've drowned this month! I can't figure out how the heck it became the 20 try and I have yet to actually finish a book of hardly any pages in general.

I'm not quite sure about it. I'm hesitating to give a settled opinion yet. I had a really hard time connecting with her. Her narrative, while it should have been shocking, left me rather flat. She recounted her experience with words that should have triggered emotion, yet I almost found them forced, as if they were somewhat insincere. Not that she didn't feel grief, or shock, just that she seemed to be manipulating the emotions for the text. The only thing that really came through for me was her hatred of the Indians and her reliance on God. Perhaps it is simply a Puritan mind-set that I'm not used to. In any case, I'm reading The Journal Of William Sturgis now; he had regular contact with the Indians and it's interesting to learn of his experiences with them.

Yeh, what happened to you? You've been AWOL for quite awhile and don't seem to be getting much time to read. I have oodles of sympathy for you. Does it look like you may have more reading time in your future?

I would agree that the narrative didn't have the emotional pull it should/could have. I actually think you might have hit on something, with it being more of a Puritan way of describing something. What I have read is rather black and white and somewhat mechanical, but when you look at the expected behavior it makes sense. Celebrations, dancing, not looked well upon, entertainment (for lack of better word right now) purposes would not have been in the realm of thinking.

I do intend to go back and finish the other narratives in the book I have.

I did find some of her narrative points interesting as to viewed through her eyes.

If you get a chance (ooo, I hesitate to add to your pile), read The Journal Of William Sturgis for a contrast. A primary source document and, even though Sturgis had a rather strict faith, what a different outlook and experience! Of course, he was a man though, and in a different situation.

The introduction said that there was little problem between the Americans and the Inidans (they mentioned that the Indian would always ask if they were Boston Men or Kings men, so perhaps there was more problem with the English). I did note though, that the trading was a business and therefore it would be in everyone's best interests to keep things friendly in order to earn $$$$$$. Sorry to be cynical, but there you have it.

The Book I read from includes a narrative from three additional women..Sarah Knight, Elizabeth Trist and Elizabeth Ashbridge.

When I was reading The Winthrop Woman I could see the mechanical look at life from the parts written on John Winthrop. It also includes Indian encounters, and while I think Elizabeth was privileged in many ways because of her relation to John Winthrop she set out to live away from that as much as she could. She still did live an easier life probably, but not without its many downs. Anywhi off topic a bit, especially since it is historical fiction and doesn't fit the non-fiction theme here, but it was taken from her journals so not overly liberalized with the story.

I still can't figure out why I haven't really had time to read this month. My weekends have been overly booked with daughter and next thing I know I'm dragging and can't keep my eyes open, even during the week.

It will be a busy few months with her, and it isn't confined to just weekend, some weeknights as well.

$$$ very true, it was beneficial to both sides to keep things civil, but we know how hard that is for mankind.

Sure, the scalpings, raids and massacres happened, but that isn't the only history we have with Indian's. Unfortunately it seems like the bulk of history taught in schools here regarding the subject is only these things and they make it out to be that none lived harmoniously next to each other ever.

I'm so late to the convo! It is really weird, but I am not getting email updates that there is a conversation going on in this group. Only occasionally.

I think I see what you mean about the mechanical aspect of the narrative, and I really think it has to do with the times and her Puritan lifestyle.

Let's imagine, these people, esp. women, were probably not expected to be excitable, expressive, living-out-loud, right? Everything had to be about self-control. We're not talking Jane Austen's and Louisa May-Alcott's here. So it makes total sense that their experience in writing would be to a bare minimum, and anything else would have been totally edited.

What do you think?

A Great Book Study wrote: "What do you think? ..."

A big question and I think I'll have to back up a bit to answer.

I've been increasingly bothered by the gender themes forced on books and the feminist perspective, when people read nowadays. (I'll say that in this group, because I think I'm relatively safe here. :-) ) People now tout how women were disrespected and oppressed and that they wished they could break out of the mold set for them, treating it as if ALL women felt that way in historical times, and yet basing the women's feelings (or what we think their feelings should be) from a modern viewpoint. Yet, when we read Eliot, or Shelley, or Woolf, etc. I think we have people who are not only artistic, but are unusual for the times they live in. They represent a section of women, but I think a very small section and perhaps one of the reasons they become writers is to be able to work out their frustrations in a way that they are unable to in their society because ......... their society probably does not hold the same views as them and, to go further, perhaps doesn't even understand their views. They are in the minority. So when people use their literature to promote their feminist objectives and to pity these historical women, they often aren't representing something that was real. HOWEVER, (I'm getting to my point ...... honest) we are so used to reading these types books from women, that are really out of the mainstream thinking of those times, that when a book comes along that represents the actual majority of the views of the society, it feels WEIRD. We think, how can someone say that? How can someone think that way? Ugh! We're just not used to it.

So, to make my long opinion short, I think, instead of writing in a way that challenges her society (and therefore she would be on the outskirts of it), Rowlandson represents society as how it is, and as readers, it's not something with which we're familiar. She is Puritan, she is sparse, she is not a deep thinker and that's just the way it is. And that's probably the way it was with most women in her immediate society.

I think you hit it on the head, it is easy for the readers of today to think how in the heck did women put up with being treated this way or that, but right or wrong, that was the social norm. It isn't always easy to buck the system, especially in this instance when an outsider was easily turned into a witch.

It isn't always in ones best interest to speak out when they weigh the ripple effect.

I know I will find myself thinking wow while reading some books, thinking how did they put up with that (applies across the board, as even men had social boxes they needed to fit in). It does require one to think, what time period was this written in, by who is it written and what is the subject matter, how does this effect the characters and writing style.

Typed on phone, so excuse errors and some choppy thoughts.

Ruth, I just wanted to let you know, I appreciate all your explanations about Mary and the settler/native issues (Bookworm, check out the comments on Ruth's blog on her review if you want your head to explode further insight). It's made me appreciate the book more and perhaps better see where Mary's coming from. Honestly I haven't read much of this type of American history and I can't see having time for it in the future, so being able to glean information from someone who has, is really helpful! Thanks!

I have a question: did Rowlandson REALLY speak with King Philip? Was that odd? While she adds the information, she doesn't seem to make it a big deal about it.

I just saw this book Flight of the Sparrow: A Novel of Early America, sounds like an interesting read to have paired with this.

Man, I was just looking at my earlier comments, I think I was out to lunch. I can't even figure out what my sentences were trying to say in some spots.

Ha, ha! Perhaps you can blame it on auto-correct.

I think this biography wins for the one I liked the least, however Flight of the Sparrow: A Novel of Early America at least looks interesting. Hmmm ...... I see that Jillian has reviewed it so I'll take a look at her very looooong review when I have a moment.

Seeing Jillian's review is how I stumbled upon the book. And yes, she wrote a nice long narrative of her own. I wish I could be so studious in my write-ups!