Victorians! discussion

Summary

John and Diana make further acquaintance with one another when they meet at his townhouse on Mrs. Courtney's visit to Miss Fane. Here, Diana makes herself bold as to ask John to invite her and grandma to Overliegh.

Meanwhile, Colonel Tempest searches for one Mr. Larkin to pay up and obtained one of his signed papers and to know of the rest who hold such other papers. After some fruitless attempts, Colonel finally meets him. Mr. Larkin turns out to be none other than Marshall, the valet of John. Colonel pays up Marshall on condition that he leaves John's service. But in the other enterprise, Colonel Tempest fails, for Marshall doesn't know any other who holds similar papers against the Colonel.

John returns to Overliegh. There, he recovers quickly much to his doctors’ surprise. Archibald Tempest visits him there. John knows that he has come for money and is proved right. John informs him that this will be the last time that he'll settle Archie's debts, and here on, he must live a straight life within his means.

Diana finally arrives at Overliegh. It is evident John is in love with her, but for Diana, John is just her cousin. Mrs. Courtney seems to be working on the matchmaking.

... re: Gilling Castle = Overleigh

The en.wikipedia.org article on Gilling Castle has a photo (from 1908) and description of the Great Chamber - this is the room that is described in chapter 17 (2.4). Also, the wikipedia aerial photo of the castle, with the terraces, gives a better impression of our setting than the picture we had in week 1.

Thanks for sharing that tidbit, sabagrey. It looks a bit intimidating to me. :)

Piyangie wrote: "Thanks for sharing that tidbit, sabagrey. It looks a bit intimidating to me. :)"

it goes well with John's character, doesn't it?

sabagrey wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Thanks for sharing that tidbit, sabagrey. It looks a bit intimidating to me. :)"

it goes well with John's character, doesn't it?"

It does, indeed! Mary Cholmondeley has done her research very well.

Chapter 15 (2.2) is such a fine piece of writing in itself. I read and re-read it, line by line … there’s so much going on that I wanted to go through it slowly.

'Following his masculine instincts, he hurried across the hall with all the celerity he could muster, and had just got safe under cover when the footman answered the bell.'

The “masculine instinct” is - to go into hiding. Such a hilarious little pinprick.

John in the smoking room, hidden. There’s nothing to see, even the dog is bored to death (I told you I would watch that dog). Only the canary hopping up and down …

'John reflected that it was rather a waste of canary power; but, perhaps, there was nothing to hold back for in its bachelor existence. It would stand still enough presently when it was stuffed.'

It seems he compares himself to the canary in its “bachelor existence”. And when he thinks of the end of it - dead and stuffed - , he decides to act, and to dare climb up the stairs.

'She would not for worlds have let him see that she thought he was going to faint.'

In the first part of the scene, we learn that Di is superb at play-acting to spare him embarrassment. He never realises that he has fainted, let alone for how long. (It must have taken some time for the servant to bring the tea.) He doesn’t realise that Di makes him drink brandy to restore him.

'And then there was a little clink and clatter, and a cup of tea suddenly appeared close to him out of the darkness.'

And all the time Di keeps up her play-acting, so as not to hurt his feelings of strength and superiority.

In the second part, they both play their invisible chess. He thinks he must be extremely cautious to get her to Overleigh - while she has had the intention of being invited all along.

'"I will remember," said John, as if he would make a point of burdening his memory.'

'"I will be sure to remember," said John again. He was a little crestfallen, and yet relieved that she should think he might forget.'

“a little crestfallen” - because she has outmanoeuvred him? “relieved” - that she has no idea how important it is to him that she should come to Overleigh?

'He felt that he could trust his memory.'

… nice little piece of understatement; of course he will think of it all the time.

'you poor deluded, blinded, bandaged idiot.'

Di has turned the tables. Usually he sees himself as powerful, active, the one who pushes things forward - and she has thwarted him on all fronts, his physical condition as well as his intentions on her. I wonder whether the “deluded” already refers to her feelings toward him. This would foreshadow their relationship as it develops at Overleigh.

In this section there seems to be a swerve in the developing relationship between John and Diana. This lies mainly in the uncertainty of John when he is around Diana and the blindness of Diana to John’s obvious attraction to her. Her grandmother has spotted it straight away but Diana is oblivious.

Diana herself, so used to dealing with men and their often unwanted attentions, has no idea that John is being anything but a polite cousin paying his respects to a visitor. This is a great contrast to her manoeuvrings at Lord Hemsworth’s where she is well aware of the need to avoid his proposal of marriage. For the moment, perhaps both the mantle of head of the family and John’s unattractive outer appearance is too great a barrier for Di to be perceptive about his inner feelings.

I liked the author’s references to ‘hair’ in the way she compared John and Archie.

John
’ It must be inferred that John had hair, as he was not bald, but no one had ever noticed it except his hair-cutter. It was short and dark. In fact, it was hair, and that was all.

The author went into great detail about Archie’s luxurious blond hair and how locks of it were much sought after by women. Archie also collected locks of hair which he seemed to enjoy putting on display…..

’ Archie would listen in silence, and smile his small saintly smile. Archie's smile suggested anthems and summer dawns and blanc-mange all blent in one. And then he would gather up the landmarks of his affections, and put them back into the cigar-box. They were called "Tempest's scalps" in the regiment.

Will John continue to give Archie money?…….probably …and Archie seems to believe that as well.

Have we seen the last of Archie’s father as he steams off to the continent? I’m not sure, but maybe he will also run out of money and come back for another hand out.

John is still in great danger and his love for Diana is beginning to exasperate him. This may mean there are yet more difficult times ahead for him. Again I liked the way Mary Cholmondeley described his developing emotion of love.

’ Its feet had not yet reached the stony desert places and the lands of fierce heat and fiercer frost, through which all human love which does not die in infancy must one day travel. The strain and stress were not yet.’

’ The Tempest motto graven on the pane beside him,Je le feray durant ma vie, was graven on John's heart as indelibly. Mr. Tempest's dying words to him had never been forgotten. "It is an honour to be a Tempest.

The motto is translated as ‘I will do it so long as I live.’ It is taken from the Fairfax coat of arms. The Fairfax family were the original owners of Gilling castle. Their name derives from ‘fair locks’ (see below)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0...

Mary Cholmondeley has taken both the motto and the fair hair and given it to the Tempest family.

The Fairfax coat of arms containing the motto can be seen in a small chapel which is part of a lodge on the Gilling Castle estate.

https://www.cbcew.org.uk/wp-content/u...

Thank you for the background information!

Trev wrote: "’The motto is translated as ‘I will do it so long as I live.’ .."

Where did you find this tranlation? - I would have translated it as "I will do it in my lifetime" - which sounds a little bit less ominous to me ;-)

Trev wrote: "’ The Tempest motto graven on the pane beside him,Je le feray durant ma vie, was graven on John's heart as indelibly. Mr. Tempest's dying words to him had never been forgotten. "It is an honour to..."

I translated it as "I will do it during my life." :) That's what I could do with my limited french.

Thanks, Trev, as always, for sharing all this valuable information. It adds much to the appreciation and enjoyment of the story.

I'm really enjoying the quotes you both share here. I was much more focused on picking up discussion points while reading. Now I'm rereading all these quotes in their context and enjoying them. :)

oh yes, it's been quite a while since I've read with so much pleasure.

Can I have your opinions please? I am not sure in what way chapter 18 (2.5) advances the plot - or which plot it advances.

We meet "the Infant", and Hemsworth, and Madeleine again ... what for? What does this chapter achieve?


All I can make out is that Di has "grown up" insofar as she has overcome her outrage about Madeleine's marriage:

"I think it was a great sin," she said, at last, in a low voice,
(in ch. 6)

- not that she approves any more than she did (she is heavily sarcastic) -

“I am sure I never said anything about breaking it off after I had seen the two tiaras,”

- but she has overcome the shock, the sharp disappointment, the lost illusion, and sees that her intervention was useless (and that Madeleine has got what she wanted/deserved?)

But this is only a small part of the chapter - what about the rest?

sabagrey wrote: "Thank you for the background information!

Trev wrote: "’The motto is translated as ‘I will do it so long as I live.’ .."

Where did you find this tranlation? - I would have translated it as "I wil..."

I found it here….

https://inrebus.com/frenchmottos

I agree with you that I wouldn’t have translated it exactly like that. But like Latin mottos it may be that the meaning has been shaped into something slightly different to fit the ideas of the family.

Another translation I found was….

‘I will endure to the end.’

sabagrey wrote: "oh yes, it's been quite a while since I've read with so much pleasure.

Can I have your opinions please? I am not sure in what way chapter 18 (2.5) advances the plot - or which plot it advances.
..."

My view on the chapter was that it served to show us how much Diana is frustrated regarding the situation with Lord Hemsworth and possibly the whole idea of her marrying someone.

All the time she is there she seems to be counting the days to when she can leave. She even admits her own frustration at not being able to accept Lord Hemsworth but at the same time shows her strength of character in making such a decision.

Madeleine’s appearance just reinforces all Diana’s prejudices against such a society marriage as hers, even if she does exchange pleasantries as if she has changed her mind. I don’t think any plot is advanced apart from a further hardening of Diana’s resolve not to marry Lord Hemsworth.

Trev wrote: "I will endure to the end.’."

emphatically (and with the weight of a university diploma ;-)): NO.

There are, again, a lot of 'quoteworthy' lines in this section, but I think my favourites are:

... and vainly endeavouring to nail shadows to the wall.

I like this image exceedingly. And there is also this about poverty, not really related to the plot, but so well put:

It requires a rare nobility of character to rise permanently above the dirty table-cloth, and ill-trimmed paraffin-lamp of poor circumstances. Poverty demoralizes. A smell of cooking, and, why I know not, but especially an aroma of boiled cabbage, can undermine the dignity of existence. A reminiscence of yesterday on the morning fork dims the ideals of youth.

All beautiful quotes indeed! :)

Excellent choice of quotes Sabagrey. They demonstrate how well the author uses both poetic imagery and forceful prose.

I am dipping into one of her collections of short stories. I was surprised to discover that the one I have just finished had elements of science-fiction with part of it set in 1965.

Trev wrote: "Excellent choice of quotes Sabagrey. They demonstrate how well the author uses both poetic imagery and forceful prose.

I am dipping into one of her collections of short stories. I was surprised to..."

I have also decided to read more of Cholmondeley - I started with Red Pottage - very well written, too, but I like it less than Diana Tempest. Short stories to follow ...

I want to read her more too. It's about finding the time these days. :)

I started late and I'm gradually catching up with everyone.

Apparently there is something subtly compelling to others in John's character - even though he isn't pleasant to look at or to be with. "It was remarkable, considering he had apparently no special talent or aptitude for any one line if study and had never particularly distinguished himself ... that nevertheless he had unconsciously raised in the minds of ... many ... a(n) expectation that he would make his mark, that ... he would come to the fore."

When Lord Frederick Fane talked to John as he was recuperating from his burns, regarding how too many young men waste their best years following some pie-in-the-sky inner vision of truth, it reminded me of Komarovsky talking to the young Zhivago.

When you think about it, this is a story with some major violence. We have someone pushed in front of a train, with his savior losing both hands, and someone burned in an arson fire. Even though the acts are softened by Cholmondeley by relating them in the past tense or in sketch form, it made me wonder if the book was considered a sensation novel in its day.

I love the scene in which the barely recuperated John learns that Di is visiting and makes an arduous climb upstairs. He is then left in a state of near-collapse but at the same time overwhelmed with her vague presence at the tea cart:

"...she was back again beside him, only a voice now, a voice among the lilies, which appeared and disappeared at intervals. ... the voice spoke gently from time to time. It was a wonderful dream in a golden dusk."

And later, when he believes she has been indifferent to him at Overleigh, he goes into a funk:

"...staring at the shelves of embodied thought and speculation and aspiration with which at one time he had been content to live, which, now that he had begun to live, seemed entirely beside the mark."

Very enjoyable.

I'm pleased that you're enjoying it, Brian. As to your mentioning that there was violence, I think it was kind of necessary since this novel was to be partly sensation.

Brian wrote: "When Lord Frederick Fane talked to John as he was recuperating from his burns, regarding how too many young men waste their best years following some pie-in-the-sky inner vision of truth, it reminded me of Komarovsky talking to the young Zhivago.."

It made me think of Middlemarch - for me the "great novel of disillusionment".

OK - it's been 30 years since I read that one :)

It's definitely sensational, but then so was Dickens, so was Hardy...an awful lot of the Victorian novels we now regard as canonical "classics" have remained readable into the present day because of their lively stories, replete with deaths, secret babies, broken hearts, etc.

Jane wrote: "It's definitely sensational, but then so was Dickens, so was Hardy...an awful lot of the Victorian novels we now regard as canonical "classics" have remained readable into the present day because o..."

I think part of why the classics seem "sensational" is that the reading audiences were less split up into "serious readers" and "entertainment readers" than today, where the ones read the "heavy stuff" (non-sensational) and the others prefer (sensational) thrillers, mysteries, romances etc. - The classics did not mind being popular.