Tournament of Books discussion

Space to discuss TOB 2023 contender "Babel: An Arcane History" by RF Kuang.

I read that Kuang said that Babel was a response to My Secret History by Donna Tartt. I didn’t get that at all so if someone can explain I’m all ears. I thought it was a fascinating book but I don’t normally read fantasy….it reminded me in some ways of Harry Potter.

Looks like I'm one of the few who really didn't like this book. (I actually DNF'd.) It's interesting she's trying to compare it to The Secret History. Where Tartt's book really brought you into the relationships between the characters, and built the plot from those relationships, Kuang's characters felt so flat to me, really interchangeable, which kept me from engaging at all in the story.

I thought the theme was worth examining, and the magic system was interesting, but theme on its own isn't enough to carry a story for me. The writing itself also felt very flat.

Have not yet read it, but it is one of the shortlist books to which I’m most looking forward. I loved (but have never re-read since it was first published all those years ago) “Secret History”. If this has any of that kind of narrative energy, I’ll be pleased.

I am two thirds of the way through and I am totally with you Elizabeth! I am struggling to finish. The theme is a good hook, but I am squirming on the line of narrative. The characters are so immature in their actions and interactions. Nothing about it reminded me of Secret History; more like a Trixie Bleden Goes to Cambridge. Now I have to decide if it becomes a DNF!

It helps I think to have the audio. So many footnotes. I am reading If We Were Villains which is a lot more like The Secret History than Babel. I know we’re all trying to read shortlist novels now but if you love dark academia you should put Villains on your TBR.

I just finished the paper edition of this and enjoyed it a lot. Janet, like you, I’m not much of a fantasy reader, and there were moments early on when I got Harry Potter vibes. But I enjoyed the nerdy, speculative history aspects and the anti-colonialism, and I loved the last five pages.

Julie, “Trixie Belsen Goes to Cambridge “ made me snort my coffee…thanks!

BELDEN, not BELSEN. Damn autocorrect. :-)

This was offered in an audible 2 for 1 sale and so I'm listening to it. I'm not a good listener and usually stick to podcasts, but this one is really holding my attention so far.

I was torn on how to rate this when I was done. I really liked parts of it, and then I was bored the rest of the time. I have not read Secret History, so I can't compare it to that. I was disappointed by the ending too. But I loved the writing (when it didn't bore me), the diverse cast of characters, the anti-colonial/anti-racist/anti-sexist themes, and the portrayal of their friendship. I never warmed up to Robin, though.

Her quote was “thematic response to The Secret History [by Donna Tartt] and a tonal retort to Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell [by Susanna Clarke]”, which I find interesting because I did not necessarily have either in mind while reading it but I also didn't see that quote until mentioned in this thread. I have read all 3 and consider Strange & Norrell one of my favorite books. I definitely see how it would resonate with Strange as both are largely based around magic and what the British empire means. I guess the thematic response to The Secret History might just be the intersection of classical academia and who belongs on the inside and who belongs on the outside?

This is among my favorites of the tournament. I especially enjoyed the segments throughout about theories and methods of translation, word lineage across ancient and modern languages, and the power of words to evoke change. I was impressed with how the four main characters developed & grew (to me, very realistically) over the course of the story. And I thought the magical theme of silver-working required almost no suspension of disbelief -- serving in essence as a fictional stand-in for the industrial revolution (or the technological revolution, if you prefer your analogies modern). Working all of that into historical fiction that is as relevant today as then about empire, colonization, commercial exploitation of resources, effects on labor -- well, I was impressed.

Phyllis wrote: "This is among my favorites of the tournament. I especially enjoyed the segments throughout about theories and methods of translation, word lineage across ancient and modern languages, and the power..."

The stuff about translations and how they link to colonialism were my favorite parts, too.

Elizabeth wrote: "(I actually DNF'd.)..."

Me, too.

I had further comments I wanted to expand upon about why I thought this book was so good, but then I reread Phyllis's comment above and it turns out that I had been turning over her comment in my head for a few weeks and she really nailed it. Nothing to add to that right now.

I liked the story quite a bit, but the writing felt really bloated to me.

I just finished and don't know how to feel about this book! I loved how language and translations were embedded in the colonialism story, loved the characters, loved the magical silver. But the end was a slog and at times the themes got very very repetitive. I'll have to keep mulling on this one since it was fascinating, but also at times more work than I'd like from a fantasy novel.

Bretnie - I had the same reaction. There were elements I liked but it was both too heavy handed and thin about the things that I was most interested in. And it didn't feel fantasy-enough for me. This may seem random, but I think The Trees by Percival Everett, while not fantasy, does an incredible job of "burn it all down" while trusting the reader to understand why.

Karen wrote: "Bretnie - I had the same reaction. There were elements I liked but it was both too heavy handed and thin about the things that I was most interested in. And it didn't feel fantasy-enough for me. Th..."

Yes! I loved the silver, but towards the end, the fantasy felt very Harry Potter to me, find and replace "expelliarmus" with "explodium."

Yes I got a Harry Potter vibe too but I didn’t take it as a bad thing.

The author was far more interested in the political than in the fantasy elements.

I don't particularly think that's a bad thing. I love fantasy novels just as much as I like TOB-bait literary books, and it was nice to see my two loves combined. An intelligent look at colonialism through a fantasy lens? Sign me up.

I felt like the first half and second were 2 different books. I loved the first half - the exploration of words - but the second half was not as engaging to me.

Thanks Julianna! You put my thoughts into words! I loved the themes but wished for "more depth and less repetition". Also, for all the pages invested in the telling, a little more character development with believable friendships was needed. Yes, there was an unmissable YA vibe, and while not necessarily a bad thing, it became the silver elephant in the room.
I ended up calling it Babble.

Loved your comment, Phyllis, thanks for that. I enjoyed the book, like some of you, I found the ending, the last 1/4, to be a bit of a slog--once they were back in the tower, the plot just...stopped? The book was interested in politics and in revolution for sure, but a lot of it happened off screen. More than Harry Potter, it reminded me of the Magicians series. The only relation to Secret History I got was maybe the small cohort in a specialized program? Outsiders in a snobby world?

Oh lort. I have about 40 pages to go, I'll finish today in the nick of time and be a completist. Wow. Ugh. Once I saw the Harry Pottery likeness (which was early on) I couldn't unsee it and it was annoying. I loved the part about language and the colonialism stuff and really thought the silver aspect was almost unneccisarry. She seems to get lost in her own repetativeness of the story telling and its a problem. I think it could have been edited better and probabaly cut by 100 pages.
One real sticking point is the "dream in the language" for things to work with the silver, yet that only seems to be the case for Robin and Griffin with Chinese, cause everyone else is casting match pairs in all kinds of languages.