Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

This Buddy Read mainly covers books relating to the early history of the Communist Parties of our various countries. It’s a fairly niche thread, so it will probably be less of a Buddy Read, and more a repository of reviews of relevant books read, and recommendations about books to read.

I’d warmly welcome any participation, ideas, suggestions and questions. The subject will require fairly detailed reading, but probably at a reasonably leisurely pace, so I anticipate this thread lasting for two years.

Members of NTLTRC are world-wide so it would be particularly interesting to discuss the similarities and differences between the early years of the Communist Parties in our various countries.

The role played by women in the early years in the CPs in many countries was crucial, but is all too often not made visible, so it would be great to hear of any books, articles, websites, theses, etc that celebrate the role of women in the formation of Communist parties.

I’ll be covering the early years of the Communist Party of Britain (so, roughly 1900 – 1927). Who would be interested in taking part, and what country and dates interest you?

Looking forward to all posts here. As an American, a search about the communist party usually brings me to the 1950s or 60s. I’m much more interested in 1900 to 1930.

I’m interested in following the discussion.

I'm in JR! I will do UK also, but especially England, over the period 1926 to 1945.

Chad and Pam - great to have you in and following the thread.

Bernard - fantastic that you are covering the UK for that period!

I'm interested, somewhat, to come here, for a while.

I am very interested in the books you choose to read and will follow your progress.

Welcome, Luis and Penelope.

I am interested. My interest primarily is "propaganda". I am not country specific. If this doesn't fit this group I will just be a lurker. Thank You.

Some of the books I will be reading are posted here:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

If anyone is interested in reading any of these with me message me.

Currently reading Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes I know that in the Appendix he talks about Mao. He talks about Lenin and Stalin as well but he doesn't want to make this his primary focus because he said other people have already covered this.

Thanks for sharing that list, Cosmic. The one I most like the look of is The Rhetoric of Mao Zedong: Transforming China and Its People, but it's fairly expensive at the moment, and no library in Glasgow has a copy.

If none of the university libraries in Glasgow have a copy, I'll hold off in the hope that I'll be able to pick up a copy second-hand. It certainly looks interesting.

John & Cosmic - I agree that The Rhetoric of Mao Zedong looks interesting. I found the ebook on Hoopla. (I don’t know if Hoopla is available in countries outside the US but that’s my to-go place for books that aren’t readily available in print.) I put it on my 2023 TBR shelf but, if I get to it, it will be much later in the year.

Pam wrote: "John & Cosmic - I agree that The Rhetoric of Mao Zedong looks interesting. I found the ebook on Hoopla. (I don’t know if Hoopla is available in countries outside the US but that’s my to-go place fo..."

Unfortunately, Hoopla isn't available in the UK, Pam; there is a sort of equivalent, but they don't have the ebook either. But I'm glad you managed to find it - I'll try to get a copy by later in the year and we can perhaps read it together then.

I saw my reference book recently. Perhaps tomorrow I can actually find it ....

Bernard wrote: "I saw my reference book recently. Perhaps tomorrow I can actually find it ...."

.....your first task for the new year, Bernard.

Haha! Indeed. I am not good with resolutions, but I will try my hardest.

John wrote: "Thanks for sharing that list, Cosmic. The one I most like the look of is The Rhetoric of Mao Zedong: Transforming China and Its People, but it's fairly expensive at the moment, and ..."

I think it is 2.99 on Kindle

Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes


"The Russian society of 1917. present-day China. Indochina, the...
Arab world. But the point here is precisely that these societies
could not and cannot be captured, manipulated, and mobilized by
propaganda, except when their traditional structures disintegrate
and a new society is developed which is both individualistic and
massive Where this fails to happen, propaganda remains ineffective. Therefore, if the new society does not constitute itself spontaneously, it is sometimes formed by force by authoritarian states, which only then can utilize propaganda."

I think this is an important topic when discussing the History of Communism.

Here are my notes on that section (2 sections really).

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I find this really very interesting because I don't think I could think of anything that could do this kind of thing as dramatically as war.

John wrote: "Thanks for sharing that list, Cosmic. The one I most like the look of is The Rhetoric of Mao Zedong: Transforming China and Its People, but it's fairly expensive at the moment, and ..."

Another book that might interest you that I plan to read in May is The Good Earth Trilogy: The Good Earth, Sons, and A House Divided. This is a trilogy and covers the years that lead up to and covers the Chinese Revolution.

I think that Dragon Seed might be her fictional account of Mao.

I want to read Camus’ “The Rebel” again. the Anti-Communism movement played a large role in its making and most interestingly it factioned him against Sartre.

Gary wrote: "I want to read Camus’ “The Rebel” again. the Anti-Communism movement played a large role in its making and most interestingly it factioned him against Sartre."

The Rebel Thank you for mentioning this. I did not know about this. I know that Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes talks a lot about the French and Algeria. I personally am not acquainted with this history. I would say that I am new to history and wars...but have been studying them more since 2012, because of The Catcher in the Rye.

Cosmic wrote: "John wrote: "Thanks for sharing that list, Cosmic. The one I most like the look of is The Rhetoric of Mao Zedong: Transforming China and Its People, but it's fairly expensive at the..."

That must be a "sale" price in the US, Cosmic. Its £14.99 for kindle on Amazon UK!

Gary wrote: "I want to read Camus’ “The Rebel” again. the Anti-Communism movement played a large role in its making and most interestingly it factioned him against Sartre."

That's interesting, Gary - I didn't know that. I must find out some more about that. I was vaguely aware that the two of them had some sort of bust up, but I didn't know why.

Found it! The book in question is:

"Enemy within: The rise and fall of the British communist party" , by Francis Beckett, published by John Murray Ltd.

Well found, Bernard. I have a copy on my shelf. It's a while since I read it, so I should probably read it again. I rated it 4 stars first time round - Beckett is a journalist rather than a historian, but the book was reasonably fair and unbiased.

Excellent! So we will have common references.

This is interesting comparison with my country, the USA and Mao's China. You can read my notes on this section of the book (25) at the link below.

For example, there is not much difference between Mao’s theory of the "mold" and McCarthyism. In both cases the aim is normalcy, in conformance with a certain way of life. For Mao, normalcy is a sort of ideal man, the prototype of the Communist, who must be shaped, and this can be done only by pressing the individual into a mold in which he will assume the desired shape.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Gary wrote: "I want to read Camus’ “The Rebel” again. the Anti-Communism movement played a large role in its making and most interestingly it factioned him against Sartre."

I found this when I was reading Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes. Found it interesting that his name was mentions, though Jacques Ellul, is French.

"In the world of politics and economics, the same holds true.
The news is only about trouble, danger, and problems. This gives
man the notion that he lives in a terrible and frightening era,

that he lives amid catastrophes in a world where everything
threaten his safety. Mao cannot stand this, he cannot be in an absurd and incoherent world (for this he would have to be heroic, and even Camus, who considered this the only honest posture, was not really able to stick to it); nor can he accept the idea that the problems, which sprout all around him. cannot be solved, or that he himself has no value as an individual and is subject to the turn of events. The man who keeps himself informed needs a framework in which all this information can be put in order, he needs explanations and comprehensive answers to general problems; he needs coherence. And he tired, an affirmation of his own worth. All this is the immediate effect of information And the more complicated the problems are. the more simple the explanations must be; the more fragmented the canvas, the simpler the pattern; the more difficult the question, the more all- embracing the solution, the more menacing the reduction of his own worth, the greater the need for boosting his ego. All this propaganda — and only propaganda — can give him Of course, an outstanding man of vast culture, great intelligence, and exceptional energy can find answers for himself, reconcile himself to the absurd, and plan his own action But we are not thinking here of the outstanding man ( who. naturally, we all imagine ourselves to be), but of the ordinary man."

I have not read anything by Camus so this reference is over my head. I wonder if the book The Rebel is the one that Jacques Ellul is also think of.

It is interesting that we do have another reference here for Mao.

The book which can be found on here, page 145: https://archive.org/details/Propagand...

I've just finished The Legend of Red Clydeside. Like a lot of books like this, it started life as a PhD thesis, and it shows.

Also the book is fairly revisionist, and disputes that there ever was a Red Clydeside. I tend to agree with the vast majority of people who don't think there was a real revolutionary moment in Glasgow in 1919, but this book goes a bit too far in playing down the efforts of socialists in Glasgow and Scotland at that time.

Although I only rated it 3 stars, it has motivated me to read more on Red Clydeside - particularly as November, 2023 is the centenary of the death of John Maclean, a revered figure on Clydeside.

John wrote: "I've just finished The Legend of Red Clydeside. Like a lot of books like this, it started life as a PhD thesis, and it shows.

Also the book is fairly revisionist, and disputes that ..."

Reading this blurb off of Wiki was interesting (me, being ignorant of the subject):

Red Clydeside was the era of political radicalism in Glasgow, Scotland, and areas around the city, on the banks of the River Clyde, such as Clydebank, Greenock, Dumbarton and Paisley, from the 1910s until the early 1930s. Red Clydeside is a significant part of the history of the labour movement in Britain as a whole, and Scotland in particular.

Some newspapers of the time used the term "Red Clydeside" to refer, largely derisively, to the groundswell of popular and political radicalism that had erupted in Scotland. A confluence of charismatic individuals, organised movements and socio-political forces led to Red Clydeside, which had its roots in working-class opposition to Britain's participation in the First World War, although the area had a long history of political radicalism going back to the Society of the Friends of the People and the "Radical War" of 1820.

That's a good summary, Cosmic. Red Clydeside is also interesting in relation to this thread because of the number of people from the area who played key roles in the early years of the Communist Party - people like Arthur McManus, Tom Bell, Willie Gallacher, Robin Page Arnott and Helen Crawfurd. Others who were active socialists included John Maclean, Harry McShane, and Davie Kirkwood.

I've just finished Rajani Palme Dutt: A Study In British Stalinism by John Callaghan. Dutt was one of the leaders of the Communist Party in Britain from its early days until around 1965. A brilliant intellectual rather than a member of the working class, he was utterly committed to the Party, the International, and the Soviet Union - unfortunately so much so that he was blinded to the worst of Stalinism.

The book is well-written and balanced; it is very much about Dutt so didn't contain a great deal that was of interest to me about the early history of the Party, and a lot of the book deals with international matters, as Dutt brilliantly supported anti-imperialism and anti-colonialism throughout many years when others on the left - particularly the British Labour Party - were very much part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Yes, he was an interesting person.

I found another interesting quote from Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes

"Marxism, too. readily takes a critical attitude with regard to the
effectiveness of propaganda. I will offer only one example. Mao
Tse-tung, in his report on the internal differences between
Communist countries, made in February 1951 (published in June
1957 ) , declared that one cannot force a people to renounce idealism or to believe in Marxism. Propaganda, he said, can "force"
people to become Marxist, but is ineffective in that case, Mao
added that “one must use democratic methods such as public
discussion, criticism, persuasion, appropriate education" That
sounds like a program of Human and Public Relations. But one
must remember that the aim is. nevertheless, fixed and precise;
the people must become Marxist. Mao rejects only certain methods of psychological pressure and the most elementary forms of propaganda. But what is “appropriate education?" It is to teach children a Marxist catechism, to give them a Marxist conception of the world in history and science. What is public discussion and criticism? Who will conduct the sessions if not a leader who knows where they should lead and who will imperceptibly lead his speakers to that point in the course of the discussion. What is persuasion other than one of propaganda's most current forms? Mao describes only the more modem and personalized forms of propaganda With regard to the democracies, we know from the experience of group dynamics how false is the assertion that propaganda is ineffective (see Whyte. Sorokin, etc ). To put it differently, all that matters is what one means by propaganda. Besides, even if it were impossible for propaganda to get people to believe in Marxism, propaganda was very successful in China in making the people act in accord with the government's wishes. The “great leaps forward" and the communes are admirable examples of propagandas efficiency’ ."

I think this is interesting in light of the fact that here in America we have the government that regulates children's programs and funds them for television.

It would be interesting how education and communism rose together.

Here is another quote from; Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes

The attainment of consciousness on the part of the labor
class between 1848 and 1917. Marx is perfectly right when he
says that the actual condition of the proletariat is nothing unless
the proletariat is aware of that condition ; that such awareness is
simultaneously the creator of the labor class and the revolutionary
will, and that it cannot occur spontaneously or individually. It is
the fruit of what the workers are told by certain intellectuals, the result of an "education"— in reality, of a propaganda. Propaganda, sometimes uncertain and searching for a way but effective in the long run, has led the working class to where it is now, and has done so by closely mixing action, education, mass meetings, and "propaganda" in the strict sense of the term, according to the formula that I have indicated as typical for propaganda in the broad sense.

Puts funding education in a different light.

Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes

The revolutions of 1917 and 1933 are the results of
propaganda, in the very words of those who made them. Lenin and Trotsky, Hitler and Goebbels said time and again that the success of their revolutions was the result of propaganda, which made the revolutions of 1917 and 1933 are the results of
propaganda, in the very words of those who made them. Lenin and Trotsky, Hitler and Goebbels said time and again that the success of their revolutions was the result of propaganda, which made the masses become adherents of a minority. e masses become adherents of a minority.

In reading the books that you are reading how has propaganda played an important part?

Cosmic wrote: "I found another interesting quote from Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes

"Marxism, too. readily takes a critical attitude with regard to the
effectiveness of propaganda. ..."

That's interesting, Cosmic - I am always amazed at how people in the US and UK can righteously criticize "propoganda" from left-wing states, but totally fail to see that in Britain and America we are subjected to a constant barrage of propaganda from the right-wing mainstream press and media.

Cosmic wrote: "Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes

The revolutions of 1917 and 1933 are the results of
propaganda, in the very words of those who made them. Lenin and Trotsky, Hitler and ..."

So far I'm not seeing a major role for what I'd regard as propaganda, Cosmic, but certainly the socialists and communists in the UK in the early 20th century saw education and self-education as being vitally important. So they ran classes in economics, marxist fundamentals, humanism, etc etc. Some organisations with similar aims, like the Workers Educational Association, or the Marx Memorial Library and Workers School, survive to this day.

Cosmic wrote: "Here is another quote from; Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes

The attainment of consciousness on the part of the labor
class between 1848 and 1917. Marx is perfectly righ..."

It's why the right hate public libraries - they don't fit in with their cultural hegemony.

John wrote: "I am always amazed at how people in the US and UK can righteously criticize "propoganda" from left-wing states, but totally fail to see that in Britain and America we are subjected to a constant barrage of propaganda from the right-wing mainstream press and media."

Well that is really not the case. He actually does not take sides. His book is on Propaganda. I will give you a good example. There is a chapter about Propaganda and Religion. I have my notes here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I did not quote anything related to the subjects you are questioning, because this thread is about Communism and I was trying to stay on topic.

Propaganda is very seductive and takes away our liberties.

John wrote: "It's why the right hate public libraries - they don't fit in with their cultural hegemony"

Not sure what you are talking about? I have never heard this. Do you have a reference? Or was that propaganda? lol

My February book for this buddy read is similar in scope to my January choice, its Glasgow 1919: The Rise of Red Clydeside by Kenny MacAskill.

MacAskill isn't a historian, he's a politician - he was an MP for the Scottish National Party, but left to join the Alba Party (also a party which supports Scottish Independence), so it will be interesting to read his take on "Red Clydeside". He'd previously written a book on the 1820 Rising - Radical Scotland: Uncovering Scotland's Radical History, which was excellent, so I'm hoping this one is as good.

I just nominated The Rhetoric of Mao Zedong: Transforming China and Its People by Xing Lu

In case you are interested in reading it as a group, will need seconds.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

This looks like an interesting, if a bit specialised, book, Cosmic and I'd certainly like to read it at some point....but I think I'll wait until I can get a copy a bit cheaper than it's current price on Amazon UK.

When you read it, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

John wrote: "This looks like an interesting, if a bit specialised, book, Cosmic and I'd certainly like to read it at some point....but I think I'll wait until I can get a copy a bit cheaper than it's current pr..."

I will definitely post things of interest to the group.

Thanks Cosmic. While the book you mention is currently too expensive for my liking, you have motivated me to go and read some of Mao Zedong's writing. It's not really relevant to this thread - but I'll let you know what I read.

I've interrupted my reading of Glasgow 1919: The Rise of Red Clydeside in order to read Stalin's British Victims by Francis Beckett, which I started yesterday. It's the stories of several British Communists (including one of the founding members of the Communist Party of Britain) who were caught up in Stalin's paranoid purges.

I finished Stalin's British Victims; an excellent but sobering book.

The author has also recently written a play about one of those victims - Rose Cohen - who was a close friend of many of the leaders of the Communist Party of Britain at the time, but this did not save her, or her husband, from being arrested and executed in Moscow. An article about Rose, and the play, in the Morning Star newspaper kicked off a debate in the letters pages of the newspaper, which led to me reading the original book.

I'd recommend it.

I've just started reading Radiant Illusion? Middle-class recruits to Communism in the 1930s by Nicholas Deakin - the story of young middle-class communists who joined the British Communist party in the 1930s.

I'm reading this as a break from "Red Clydeside" which I'll return to in April.

I saw this book on sale on Kindle for a penny, Civilising rural Ireland: The co-operative movement, development and the nation-state, 1889-1939. Just feels like it might relate to this subject. It was a penny.

Sounds like a good buy, Cosmic!