The Sword and Laser discussion

Posted this on Discord where it promptly got buried in a slew of posts. Thought I'd share here for some possible discussion. Talk amongst yourselves, I'm verklempt at the body count...

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About 10% of the way in and, WOW, what a silly beginning!

* Mom's a general but doesn't outfit her kid for a possibly fatal test. Nope, that's up to sis to do, in the hour before the ordeal begins. Not to worry, it comes with a slice of data dump.

* Speaking of data dump, the MC talking history to herself on the bridge? Oy vey.

* The Realm is at risk so they let their best recruits die on a bridge or kill each other? Yyyyyyeah.

* THE. MOST. OBVIOUS. Enemies to lovers storyline start.

* Sending a candidate with a disability to a physical ordeal where 3/4 die? Not a good mom look here.

I don't want to over-bash here, but Dragonflight this ain't. More Hunger Games with dragons. I want Mom's reason to be tight here, something only the MC can do revealed over the course of the book. Otherwise it's just ego on Mom's part.

John (Taloni) wrote: "* The Realm is at risk so they let their best recruits die on a bridge or kill each other? Yyyyyyeah."

Even though I'm enjoying the book, this is my biggest WTF.

Why have a system where failure means death? Just because someone doesn't have what is takes to become a dragon rider they die? Surely the recruits who don't make it can contribute some other way to the war effort.

Yeah, the amount of last minute life saving prep was among the silly things that made me stop at chapter one. I had zero interest in watching an unlikable protagonist survive against the odds. If the book had pulled a fast one on us and had her plummet to her death in chapter one, I’d have liked that better, but it was clear this book wasn’t going to have any surprises like that,

That would be a short book. Would have saved me reading 4 more chapters before I lemmed it though.

John (Taloni) wrote: "Posted this on Discord where it promptly got buried in a slew of posts."

John (Taloni) wrote: "where it promptly got buried in a slew of posts"

John (Taloni) wrote: "promptly got buried in a slew of posts"

John (Taloni) wrote: "promptly got buried in a slew of posts"

John (Taloni) wrote: "promptly got buried in a slew of posts"

I’m sorry, what?

🤣

There are some things that are setup for twists later. Although some answers are left for the next book in the series.

I find it interesting. Why is this kind of thing a problem here? I mean nobody seems to mind that Darth Vader is murdering officers for no real reason.

And even though I have a problem with the movies, nobody seems to criticize the Fast and the Furious for it's overuse of tropes ("Family!"), ridiculous dialogue, complete disregard of physics, bonkers plots and overall sillyness - in fact that seems what most people seem to enjoy about those "films".

I feel Veronica's suspicion that it's gendered may play into it. Over-the-top action stuff is okay, but in a romance is silly...

Just a thought...

As one of the males who has been extremely critical of this book I take umbrage with the claim that it’s because I’m a man and somehow biased against this book because of the “romance.” I’m as down for a well written, well plotted romantic fantasy as the next person but this is not it. What I am biased against is slap dash, pot boiler drivel like this. People are defending its Tropes with the “tropes” are good defense. Tropes are best used when you can subvert them or stand them on their heads. This book doesn’t even try. Oh, and by the way - Fast and Furious is also garbage.

Kevin wrote: "As one of the males who has been extremely critical of this book I take umbrage with the claim that it’s because I’m a man and somehow biased against this book because of the “romance.” I’m as down..."

I completely agree.
It sounds like i’m a man, i guess, since I couldn’t get past chapter one, but as a man, i am supposed to like fast and furious, which I don’t, so now I’m very confused. Apologies for not conforming to either gender stereotype, I guess. Foolish of me to think I was anything other than an it, I guess. (haven’t listened to the podcast yet, so maybe it’s doesn’t come across as badly as the above makes it sound, but it makes me sad that gender was brought into it)

Jan wrote: "I find it interesting. Why is this kind of thing a problem here? I mean nobody seems to mind that Darth Vader is murdering officers for no real reason."

Vader murders officers when they fail, but never capriciously. And this is consistently portrayed as DOUBLE-PLUS BAD. In this book, kids dying because they were only 99% successful or because they couldn’t measure up to stupidly difficult challenges is seen as just fine. Murdering your fellow students is seen as just fine. Critical difference there. Also, Vader kills 2 guys over a period of four years. TWO. Yarros offs 90% of her characters. Her body count is in double digits in less than a month.

The reason why you remember Vader’s kills is because THERE ARE ONLY TWO. They hit hard. Do you know offhand how many kids die in the first half of this book? I’ll bet real Deutschmarks that you’re wrong.


Jan wrote: "And even though I have a problem with the movies, nobody seems to criticize the Fast and the Furious for it's overuse of tropes ("Family!"), ridiculous dialogue, complete disregard of physics, bonkers plots and overall sillyness - in fact that seems what most people seem to enjoy about those "films". "

Comparing this stupid book that is inexplicably popular to stupid movies that are inexplicably popular is not the score you seem to think it is.


Jan wrote: "I feel Veronica's suspicion that it's gendered may play into it. Over-the-top action stuff is okay, but in a romance is silly... "

That is sexist and offensive. A bad book is a bad book, no matter who wrote it.

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo? Garbage book with shit writing. By a man.

Relic? Garbage book with shit writing. By a man.

Nemesis? Garbage book with shit writing. By a man.

Kevin wrote: "As one of the males who has been extremely critical of this book I take umbrage with the claim that it’s because I’m a man and somehow biased against this book because of the “romance.” I’m as down..."

Word.

Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "I completely agree.
It sounds like i’m a man, i guess, since I couldn’t get past chapter one, but as a man, i am supposed to like fast and furious, which I don’t, so now I’m very confused. Apologies for not conforming to either gender stereotype, I guess."

Don’t worry, bro. I got your back, man. Dudes 4eva!

Trike wrote: "Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "I completely agree.
It sounds like i’m a man, i guess, since I couldn’t get past chapter one, but as a man, i am supposed to like fast and furious, which I don’t, so..."

❤️

Kevin wrote: "As one of the males who has been extremely critical of this book I take umbrage with the claim that it’s because I’m a man and somehow biased against this book because of the “romance.” "
That's not at all what I wanted to express. And I think I didn't. You can dislike stuff for any reason and it doesn't mean being personally biased,

My observation was that we as a culture tend to be more lenient towards traditionally male oriented trash like mindless action than female oriented trash like over-the-top romance. That doesn't say anything about the individual.

But for me (as a man) who enjoyed this book so far in a mindless popcorn flick kind of way, this month has been rather uncomfortable with people stating their extreme displeasure with the book *everywhere* even in a "What are we nomming thread" where I tried to stay upbeat and fun.

But also I am not feeling particularly strongly about the book, so I am out of discussions for this month. I will continue reading and maybe I will enjoy the book till the end. But the book club discussion is just not for me this month. And I probably shouldn't have posted this to begin with.

So please just ignore me.

^ Appreciate that, Jan. And, reading the thread, it feels like we're treading close to the line of bashing the host for an opinion. Which I very much want to avoid. They provide the site, the podcast, the reason for reading the book, etc etc.

It's a fact that romance is read more by women. And this book participates in the romance category, not solely such tho. It's also fantasy, about on the level of Game of Thrones including the death stunting. (I have never watched nor read Game of Thrones, specifically for the body count and overall needless violence. IMO of course.) It's also kind-of YA Hunger Games, which also included romance but wasn't exclusively that.

It's hard to miss the McCaffrey riffs, all the way to dragon sex influencing their riders. Hey, if this brings new people to the classic Pern series, I'm all for it.

I suppose this book is "romance plus," like say Gail Carriger is the same. I'm not overall a big fan of romance, but throw in some steampunk, a brassy heroine and a grumpy werewolf plus oodles of wit and charm, and I'm in. Or for that matter, big gothic expanses of Moors. ("Xaden" doesn't map to "Heathcliff" well, nor "Violet" to "Cathy" or I'd be off and filking to a certain Kate Bush song.)

Anyway, I'm on about the billionth death and wondering why in god's name the people on this land even bother to work with dragons, hey, maybe they'd be better off picking a smaller human-defendable state. Seems more like the humans serve the dragons than any kind of symbiosis. The entire population as a vassal state to the dragons? Probably not in this kind of book. But anyway, plenty to like, and to criticise, without bashing our hosts for having an opinion.

John (Taloni) wrote: "^ Appreciate that, Jan. And, reading the thread, it feels like we're treading close to the line of bashing the host for an opinion. Which I very much want to avoid. They provide the site, the podca..."

Sorry, you’re right, I was being a little judgemental considering I haven’t even listened to the podcast. I did definitely take Jan’s post, intentional or not, to mean there has been a criticism of us blokes not liking the book because it was too girly, and took offence at that perceived insult (not being a man and being rather fond of a decent romance book).

But if the point that was made was merely that society as a whole seems to be more critical of things that are likely to appeal to women than things more likely to appeal to men, I would actually agree (and it sucks). A better example of this, I’d argue, is The Devil Wears Prada, which I’d argue is a gem of a film that gets dismissed as a ‘chick flick’ even though the themes in the film go beyond the text and could resonate with anyone.

On that note, I once referred to a job as undesirable because "they treat 'The Devil Wears Prada' as an instruction manual." Can't say I miss that place. So yeah, definitely resonates.

I'll avoid the gender discussion but I will vehemently disagree with casting this book as GoT-like. GoT was inspired by the War of the Roses, a particularly bloody civil war in England that went on for decades. Like the War of the Roses, a lot of the deaths in GoT are characterized by noble houses throwing their peasant armies at one another on one hand (the uncaring deaths of the masses who pay for their leaders' ambitions and vanity.) And others are similar to the issues of changing allegiances and noble houses betraying one another (the wars completely destroyed the male line of the Lancaster house, one of the claimants to the throne, giving rise to the Tudors.)

In GoT the Starks did their best to stay out of the conflict for hundreds of pages while Ned navigated the politics. When he was executed you *knew* the secret the Lannisters were trying to hide when they did it. And you *knew* why his son united the North in war against them. And you *know* lots of people are going to die in a war because that's what wars do. Watching her father's beheading, you *learn* why young Arya harboured a burning desire for revenge against all the people that wronged her and her family. When Robb broke his agreement with the Freys and married another woman you can *see* both sides that led to the red wedding.

The deaths in 4W felt very arbitrary, substituting a body count for real motives. Other than a few accidents, you don't *expect* people to die at a school. But we want Violet to feel like she's in danger? Uhm, how about a narrow bridge run with bad shoes and a dragon bbq at the end? Ok, how do we sustain that feeling of danger during school? Uhm, other students are allowed to murder you and if you fail some of the tests you die. Lots of you. The foundation underpinning these story choices seems very flimsy - they don't seem realistic and there is nothing helping us to understand them other than "let people know Violet is in terrible danger here."

Body count aside (actually, 4W comes nowhere close to GoT), there are no parallels.

Oaken wrote: Uhm, other students are allowed to murder you and if you fail some of the tests you die. Lots of you. The foundation underpinning these story choices seems very flimsy - they don't seem realistic and there is nothing helping us to understand them other than "let people know Violet is in terrible danger here."

This has been my biggest hurdle in fully enjoying the book. I like the characters, I think the dragons and the magic system are pretty cool, the romance is fine, but why on earth would you have a system that lets cadets kill each other?

Chris K. wrote: "Oaken wrote: Uhm, other students are allowed to murder you and if you fail some of the tests you die. Lots of you. The foundation underpinning these story choices seems very flimsy - they don't see..."

All of this could have been accomplished without the mass slaughter. It's sloppy writing.

Most could have been accomplished by including political assassination and having the protagonist wanting to succeed in spite of her disabilities (this works better if she can go to the scribes if she does not make it, then it can be uplifting rather than dystopian).

The dragons can still burn the odd candidate and it still makes more sense than what we have been given.

I hate that the killing is pointless.

Aaaaand...done. I gave the book a speed run because I had a lot of time this weekend, and I have an embarassment of riches coming in from the library. Needed to get this read to move on to Wings Once Cursed and Broken, with 9 days left on the three week borrow. And after that, finish the stories in the Half Way Home anthology.

So...with some minimal spoiler protection and vagueness...

Okay, I didn't hate it. It came in at about a three star read for me. Will I bother with the sequels? Debatable. I like that a pro-military mom is presenting troops as good people subject to orders they may not like, kind of a Starship Troopers vibe. Also a Blue Falcon who needs taking out that no one will miss, a subject that Heinlein did not get into. Not that this book is near the quality of Troopers. It's a Romance fantasy which takes "kill your darlings" WAY too seriously. I just finished and major parts are already a blur. I can still describe the four major parts of Dragonflight in some detail and last read that years ago. This one, would be hard even right at the end. Book was overlong and too many death death death scenes. But as summer reading it's just fine.

Now, parts of it make me laugh. When the romantic couple get together (don't think I need to spoiler protect here but I'll be just a little vague) the descriptions may as well be for a porn movie. I suppose I now know what "Heat Level: Hot" means. (One of my writing group does romance so I have some idea, but no particular experience.) It sure ain't "Sweet." I'm not offended, but I am reminded of the endless ass fucking scenes I waded through in Gail Carriger's San Andreas Shifters books so that I could find out what happened to the Aetherosphere as alluded to in the later Parasol Protectorate books. (Gail did in fact deliver on the Aetherosphere, and I learned way more about butt sex than I ever wanted to know.)

Then there's the lazy "getting a handle on your power" sequence. If I were in one of these books I'd ask the MC, (view spoiler)["think you could figure it out BEFORE some of us have to die for you to get motivation?" (hide spoiler)]This practically begs for a "Redshirts" treatment.

Anyway, the finale was competently if stereotypically done. Silly romance conventions at the end to set up the next books, and yawn. But then I'll slaver over descriptions of realistic rockets so I guess this just ain't my bag and others are loving it.

A decent twist or two at the end. I'm still wondering about Mom. Suppose that will come up in the next book. If I get there.

John (Taloni) wrote: "It's also fantasy, about on the level of Game of Thrones including the death stunting. (I have never watched nor read Game of Thrones, specifically for the body count and overall needless violence. IMO of course.)"

Sorry, but no. The violence and death in this book is gratuitous. The same can’t be said about Game of Thrones. There is no “stunting”. Some of the deaths in GoT are shocking, but they aren’t there merely for shock value, as they are in Fourth Wing. When people die in GoT, you know exactly why they die and most of the time you know who the characters are, so the deaths have a real impact.

Aside from the kid who falls to his death in the early chapters, I can’t tell you who any of the other deaths were. It just becomes noise because we haven’t spent any real time with them and they’ve had practically zero character development, and because there are so many.

I had some of the same negative feels about this book as some of you are posting in this thread. But I also had a blast reading it. Truly what I consider a popcorn book. Totally predictable, kind of illogical world building, language that doesn't fit the theme but great pacing, great action, some neat powers and characters and just a fun ride.

For me it is a definite 3 star review, i.e., good not great. I liked most of it but not the gratuitous deaths and the irredeemably annoying main character. (view spoiler)[ When she refuses to leave her sister and puts everyone at risk, I wanted to the book at the wall (but I couldn't because it was an audio-book). (hide spoiler)] I did like the twist at the end where the enemy is not the one you thought. Predictable, but still good.

I got the hardback from the library as I heard good things about the quality of the printed book. Most of this is true, it has nice illustrated endplates, a map of the school and the edges of the pages are black with white dragons when seen closed and side on. The thing nobody mentioned is that, even thought this was a much handled library book, it still stinks to high heaven. It's got to be horrible quality paper or ink. Printed in China so the publishers are probably making a killing on this one.