Banned Books discussion

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To Kill a Mockingbird
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To Kill a Mockingbird banned in Mulkilteo
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I read that and I feel like the teachers are to blame for not teaching it in context. Right off the bat you have a problem when the students think the book was SET in the Civil Rights era and don't understand what the story has to do with them. The teachers also should have shut down the students who deliberately used the word after being told not to. While I'm not sure I'd teach this novel to a class solely made up of students of African descent, I'd teach it to a mixed class. It shows what life was like at that place and time and the attitudes of the White people. It's relevant because you can make a direct link between systemic racism of the past to today. Of course that's not ALLOWED in way too many school districts.
QNPoohBear wrote: "I read that and I feel like the teachers are to blame for not teaching it in context. Right off the bat you have a problem when the students think the book was SET in the Civil Rights era and don't..."
I agree with casting most of the blame on teachers. You do not simply assign a book like To Kill a Mockingbird, you read it in class with your students, you discuss the issues (including the contentious so called White Saviour problematic) and you do not let students use the N word and the like in class (and do not make much use of it yourself except for mentioning that the word is unacceptable but was historically used).
I agree with casting most of the blame on teachers. You do not simply assign a book like To Kill a Mockingbird, you read it in class with your students, you discuss the issues (including the contentious so called White Saviour problematic) and you do not let students use the N word and the like in class (and do not make much use of it yourself except for mentioning that the word is unacceptable but was historically used).
The article did say the teachers had to attend sensitivity training to learn how to teach the novel but why on earth didn't they do that in the first place? They need to teach the story and the context together and not just here's what you need to read to pass the AP exam or whatever. I absolutely can't stand these standardized tests they do nowadays. I would be a third grade dropout because I can't do math and I don't test well. Fortunately I had great teachers in junior high and college who taught me how to read critically and think. High school was a bit of a dud but we did read some heavy hitters even if the teachers were awful.
I agree with all of you. The fact that it didn't resonate with the Black students of today is really relevant. I couldn't relate to the characters or situations in The Great Gatsby or Wuthering Heights or The Catcher in the Rye and I found them horribly sexist but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to read them. I hated Catcher but I understand why it is good literature. Now these kids are going to grow up thinking they shouldn't read anything that isn't in their experience.
The other piece is that the teachers should be talking about the writing itself. The author originally was going to have it written from Scout's perspective as an adult looking back. But a publisher (I think) thought it better written from the child's perspective. Was that a good choice? Did the writing come across as narrated by a child? Etc.
The other piece is that the teachers should be talking about the writing itself. The author originally was going to have it written from Scout's perspective as an adult looking back. But a publisher (I think) thought it better written from the child's perspective. Was that a good choice? Did the writing come across as narrated by a child? Etc.
Kelly H. (Maybedog) wrote: "I agree with all of you. The fact that it didn't resonate with the Black students of today is really relevant. I couldn't relate to the characters or situations in The Great Gatsby or Wuthering Hei..."
I also totally did not enjoy The Great Gatsby when we read this in grade twelve, but I am glad we read it and that I had to read it. There is in my opinion a really really problematic attitude present with both current/modern students and probably even more so their parents that books one does not enjoy and feels offended by in any way should simply not be read (and I get this even when I am teaching German literature at the university level, but thankfully, if/when some helicopter parents make a fuss that their adult children should not be forced to read this and this piece of German literature, I can generally say that this is university but that in say Florida it is getting to the point that this so called parental rights movement also seem to extend to college and university).
I also totally did not enjoy The Great Gatsby when we read this in grade twelve, but I am glad we read it and that I had to read it. There is in my opinion a really really problematic attitude present with both current/modern students and probably even more so their parents that books one does not enjoy and feels offended by in any way should simply not be read (and I get this even when I am teaching German literature at the university level, but thankfully, if/when some helicopter parents make a fuss that their adult children should not be forced to read this and this piece of German literature, I can generally say that this is university but that in say Florida it is getting to the point that this so called parental rights movement also seem to extend to college and university).

back in the '90s, I met a group of conservatives who professed not to believe in evolution. they also knew nothing about evolutionary theory, until I explained it to them. once I did that, I could see a light shine in their eyes, like they could understand that it didn't sound as silly as they had believed.
if you give any group of people a set of circumscribed ideas, they'll believe it.
Ria wrote: "@Manybooks: the problem has to do with students only having a narrow spectrum of ideas put onto them. specifically Critical Social Justice (CSJ) ideas. if they had CSJ ideas and also ideas opposed ..."
Yes, for that indeed! I experienced the same with the Holocaust in so far as that some foreign students at the University of Waterloo (mostly from India and Pakistan) knew nothing about the Holocaust because they had never been taught about it.
Yes, for that indeed! I experienced the same with the Holocaust in so far as that some foreign students at the University of Waterloo (mostly from India and Pakistan) knew nothing about the Holocaust because they had never been taught about it.
Kelly H. (Maybedog) wrote: "I agree with all of you. The fact that it didn't resonate with the Black students of today is really relevant. I couldn't relate to the characters or situations in The Great Gatsby or Wuthering Hei..."
Exactly. In the early-mid 90s we read the canon of dead white men from Homer to John Steinbeck. I'm not a man and I don't necessarily relate to the characters but reading those books expanded my horizons.
The problem today is Common Core and all the standardized testing. If it's not on the test, they don't teach it. They no longer teach a standard survey of literature or survey of history class, at least not below the high school level. While it was super boring to have to memorize names and dates and battles, we learned the whys and hows of the past. Kids today expect everyone in the past to think the way they do and they don't understand or tolerate different belief systems from the past.
Books like Huckleberry Finn and TKAM need to be taught in the classroom in context so kids understand the time and place the book was written and the purpose of the novel. The error of thinking the book takes place in the Civil Rights Era is inexcusable! In Florida they don't even teach Jim Crow in their African American history classes so right off the bat, those kids won't be prepared for reading that sort of literature. They'll never be able to go to out of state top universities. Forget Harvard and the Ivy Leagues.
Exactly. In the early-mid 90s we read the canon of dead white men from Homer to John Steinbeck. I'm not a man and I don't necessarily relate to the characters but reading those books expanded my horizons.
The problem today is Common Core and all the standardized testing. If it's not on the test, they don't teach it. They no longer teach a standard survey of literature or survey of history class, at least not below the high school level. While it was super boring to have to memorize names and dates and battles, we learned the whys and hows of the past. Kids today expect everyone in the past to think the way they do and they don't understand or tolerate different belief systems from the past.
Books like Huckleberry Finn and TKAM need to be taught in the classroom in context so kids understand the time and place the book was written and the purpose of the novel. The error of thinking the book takes place in the Civil Rights Era is inexcusable! In Florida they don't even teach Jim Crow in their African American history classes so right off the bat, those kids won't be prepared for reading that sort of literature. They'll never be able to go to out of state top universities. Forget Harvard and the Ivy Leagues.
Ria wrote: "@Manybooks: how did they react when you talked about it?"
They basically had NO idea how horrible the Holocaust was and told me that in India and in Pakistan Adolf Hitler himself was often considered positively and as someone who was a great leader (which totally freaked me out).
They basically had NO idea how horrible the Holocaust was and told me that in India and in Pakistan Adolf Hitler himself was often considered positively and as someone who was a great leader (which totally freaked me out).
Manybooks wrote: "Ria wrote: "@Manybooks: how did they react when you talked about it?"
They basically had NO idea how horrible the Holocaust was and told me that in India and in Pakistan Adolf Hitler himself was someone who was a great leader."
That's very scary especially considering they have their own issues with national identity and religious tensions.
They basically had NO idea how horrible the Holocaust was and told me that in India and in Pakistan Adolf Hitler himself was someone who was a great leader."
That's very scary especially considering they have their own issues with national identity and religious tensions.
QNPoohBear wrote: "Manybooks wrote: "Ria wrote: "@Manybooks: how did they react when you talked about it?"
They basically had NO idea how horrible the Holocaust was and told me that in India and in Pakistan Adolf Hi..."
Yeah, it really freaked me out (and they also thought that giving me the Nazi Salute was something positive, sigh). But also, should we allow international students into Canada and other Western countries without first making sure that they actually know and understand that the Holocaust was horrible and that Adolf Hitler and company were vile and depraved dictators.
They basically had NO idea how horrible the Holocaust was and told me that in India and in Pakistan Adolf Hi..."
Yeah, it really freaked me out (and they also thought that giving me the Nazi Salute was something positive, sigh). But also, should we allow international students into Canada and other Western countries without first making sure that they actually know and understand that the Holocaust was horrible and that Adolf Hitler and company were vile and depraved dictators.

what the Harvard and other Ivy League students get caught matters because those students will (unless the whole system collapses, which it might) have major influence in, say, twenty years.
Holocaust and comparable genocide is mandatory for schools in my state. I was happy to hear that. I assume high school level because I haven't heard much from my niece about that.
QNPoohBear wrote: "Holocaust and comparable genocide is mandatory for schools in my state. I was happy to hear that. I assume high school level because I haven't heard much from my niece about that."
It would make sense to make Holocaust and genocide education mandatory on a federal level and for both public and private schools and that individual states would not be able to dictate something different. But that will likely never happen.
It would make sense to make Holocaust and genocide education mandatory on a federal level and for both public and private schools and that individual states would not be able to dictate something different. But that will likely never happen.
Manybooks wrote: "Ria wrote: "@Manybooks: the problem has to do with students only having a narrow spectrum of ideas put onto them. specifically Critical Social Justice (CSJ) ideas. if they had CSJ ideas and also id..."
I was a TA for a class on Evil when I was a grad student at Wilfred Laurier (also in Waterloo). I was very frustrated that students in the class were trying to judge the Jews who ended up helping the Nazi's choose which of their own people to send to the concentration camps.
I was furious. Who can judge what they would do in a situation like that? When your own life is on the line? When you have a family who would also suffer and probably die?
I wasn't supposed to talk in the main lecture, but I couldn't stand it. I had to stand up and (very carefully) express this. But the one student I remember vividly was a Canadian white young man. He should have known better.
I was a TA for a class on Evil when I was a grad student at Wilfred Laurier (also in Waterloo). I was very frustrated that students in the class were trying to judge the Jews who ended up helping the Nazi's choose which of their own people to send to the concentration camps.
I was furious. Who can judge what they would do in a situation like that? When your own life is on the line? When you have a family who would also suffer and probably die?
I wasn't supposed to talk in the main lecture, but I couldn't stand it. I had to stand up and (very carefully) express this. But the one student I remember vividly was a Canadian white young man. He should have known better.

critical theory says that people belong to a relatively more powerful or less powerful class and that the people of the more powerful class have agency whereas the lesser don't. this does not tell the whole truth. if a person chooses to endanger themselves and their families to help others, they deserve to have that celebrated.
Ria wrote: "@ Kelly H. (Maybedog),: "Canadian white young man". that says a lot less about him than you think it does.
critical theory says that people belong to a relatively more powerful or less powerful cl..."
Good points.
critical theory says that people belong to a relatively more powerful or less powerful cl..."
Good points.
(Goodreads won't let me link to the article which is why I put the whole thing in spoiler tags to keep this post short.)
'To Kill a Mockingbird' in the hot seat at WA school district
District committee criticizes the book's language and says the way it handles race issues is problematic.
by Venice Buhain
(view spoiler)[Harper Lee's 1960 book "To Kill a Mockingbird"
A Mukilteo School District committee believes the way race is addressed in Harper Lee’s "To Kill a Mockingbird" is problematic. (Genna Martin/Crosscut)
When To Kill a Mockingbird debuted in the midst of the civil rights movement, it was both beloved and criticized. The novel by Harper Lee, published in 1960, won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction, but was also banned from some schools because characters use racist language and the plot centers on an allegation of rape.
In recent years, school districts have been revisiting the use of To Kill a Mockingbird in the classroom, with a focus on equity for students and in the curriculum.
The Mukilteo School District recently approved removing the text as a required assignment for ninth graders. Under the change, the district retains the book as an option for teachers who still want to assign it.
Three teachers at Kamiak High School made the request in the fall to remove Lee’s iconic novel from the required ninth grade curriculum, said Monica Chandler, the district’s director of curriculum and professional development, told Crosscut in an interview before the school board approved the proposal. The book will not be not banned, however, and teachers may still choose to assign the book in their classrooms.
The teachers’ objections to the book included criticism that Black characters are not fully realized and that the book romanticizes the idea of a “white savior.”
The teachers also cited concerns that characters in the book frequently use the N-word while no character explains that the slur is derogatory, and that the word and the portrayal of Black characters cause harm to students of color.
Next: Critical race theory: A political debate hits WA schools
At a school board meeting earlier this month, Verena Kuzmany, a teacher at Kamiak, questioned the “romanticization” of the book as a “cherished classic.”
“We need to examine carefully … whose collective memory we are upholding,” she said.
The district’s instructional materials committee agreed with the teachers about removing To Kill a Mockingbird from the ninth grade required reading list, but voted to allow teachers to continue to use it in their lesson plans.
That committee, made up of teachers and community members, approves all curricula in Mukilteo schools, assessing every textbook, including language arts, math, science and social studies. The criteria include grade appropriateness, how the material fits other textbooks and whether the textbook is free of ethnic, racial, gender or religious bias.
Next: How BLM protests changed teaching in King County schools
“It’s not about banning or censoring books,” Doug Baer, another Kamiak teacher, told the school board at the same meeting, adding that the novel will still be available in libraries throughout the district.
Baer said kids should not have to “endure embarrassing and offensive language” during class discussions of the book. Instead, students should be taught in environments that respect them, he said.
Thien Nguyen, a Mariner High School senior who represents students on the school board, said the district should also consult students on the matter.
“They have to sit in that classroom and read derogatory terms,” Nguyen said. “It’s hurtful and it’s harmful.”
Chandler said several teachers did come to the book’s defense in front of the instructional materials committee, saying the themes in To Kill a Mockingbird still have relevance today and and the book can help students develop critical thinking. They said the district should consider additional training for teachers to navigate sensitive texts.
The teachers’ request was the first time in 20 years that someone has proposed removing a text from the Mukilteo curriculum, Chandler said. The book was made required reading in 2016 as part of a curriculum adoption, and has been approved in the district since 1992.
Mukilteo isn’t alone in its efforts. School districts in Bellevue and throughout the country have also reconsidered Mockingbird as part of middle and high school curricula.
Their calls also echo writers in recent decades who have taken issue with what many fans believe is the moral of Mockingbird’s story, with the emphasis on identifying with Atticus and Scout as examples of how to be a good person living in a racist society.
“Many who defend Mockingbird as a choice for curriculum are imagining students emboldened by Atticus to ‘fight for right’ or inspired by Scout to be better than the society into which she is born,” wrote author Alice Randall in 2017 for NBC News. “But imagine instead that you are an African-American eighth-grade boy in Mississippi today, and are asked to read Mockingbird. Perhaps it reinforces your growing suspicion that you are unlikely to get a fair trial should you stand accused of something like Tom Robinson.”
The book’s popularity runs deep. Oprah Winfrey has called it her favorite novel. PBS viewers selected it as their top novel in the 2018 special The Great American Read.
The novel’s narrator, Scout, tells the story of a trial of a Black man falsely accused of rape and assault of a white woman — events that unveil the community’s racism, sexism and classism to Scout’s 6-year-old self. The events take place in the 1930s in a fictional Alabama town that was based on where the author grew up. But many readers have also lionized Scout’s father, attorney Atticus Finch, who represents Tom Robinson, the innocent man on trial, despite the blowback and legal injustice that Finch expects to come.
Since the 1960s, the book has faced challenges from inclusion in classrooms and libraries because of its language and subject matter. In 2019, the American Library Association listed it as No. 15 in its top 100 most banned and challenged books of the last decade.
But some educators argue that a more effective way to approach the novel is to lean heavily into its controversies and complexities, explore issues of systemic racism and the Black characters’ lack of agency and voice, and question why characters with race and class privilege are centered.
Geoffrey Glover, an English professor at the University of Pittsburgh, who specializes in African American literature and 20th century American prose, believes that Mockingbird is worth teaching as a way to bring those exact criticisms and questions into the classroom.
“I do think that approaching the novel through its weaknesses is perhaps one of the most American things you can do when you're talking about a novel that deals with race,” Glover said. “Because I mean, in many ways, the complexities of the racial landscape in the United States are there because we haven't succeeded in dealing with these issues yet.”
Glover suggests pairing To Kill a Mockingbird with texts by Black authors, such as Ralph Ellison’s Invisible Man and Ann Petry’s The Street, or more recent books, including The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas or Monster by Walter Dean Myers.
“You could talk about it in terms of the contemporary post-George Floyd kind of moment that we're in right now,” he said.
However, he added, that's not always easy for teachers to do in K-12 school districts with the current political climate, where discussions of racism in America often have been politicized and demonized.
The organization Facing History and Ourselves, a group that develops resources to help teachers discuss racism, prejudice and religious intolerance in history and literature classes, provides a teacher’s guide on To Kill a Mockingbird for high school and middle school and offers educators a course on teaching it.
Dimitry Anselme, the organization’s executive program director for professional learning and support, said the group recognizes the controversies surrounding Lee’s book, but believes that teachers who choose it for the curriculum need to provide proper context to help students navigate it.
“If they decide to teach it, [they need to] think about it deeply, get professional training and use proper teaching strategies that will help kids navigate the complexities of the book,” he said.
Anselme said the book is a product of its time — America in the 1950s and 1960s — when mainstream American discussions about race relations centered on individual responsibility, rather than recognizing and confronting institutional racism.
“In the middle of the American civil rights movement, Attitcus comes in as an inspiring figure for many Americans at the time. He gave them a roadmap of how to deal with racism on an individual level,” Anselme said.
Anselme said the theme of the book — about personal responsibility in pushing back against racism — is still relevant, which is why people still talk about the book 60 years after its publication, though perhaps the questions readers are asking about the book now are different.
“We increasingly hear that teachers are wrestling with their own identities,” Anselme said, particularly because most public school students in the U.S. are people of color, while the majority of U.S. teachers, are white, like Harper Lee and her narrator. “How do I teach this book that is respectful of students of color in the classroom? Am I teaching this book because I’m romanticizing it? How do I teach it so that it engages the kids?” (hide spoiler)]