Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

If anyone would like to lead the January discussion for FLEDGLING, please let me know. You can respond here or dm me directly. Thanks.

Oh, I read this some time ago! I hope you all enjoy it!

I've had this on my shelf for a long time - Octavia Butler is one of my favorites! I found a copy in a little free library in my neighborhood and gave it to a friend - maybe she'll join GR and join us!

Nadine in California wrote: "I've had this on my shelf for a long time - Octavia Butler is one of my favorites! I found a copy in a little free library in my neighborhood and gave it to a friend - maybe she'll join GR and join..."

Would love to find a little free library in my neighborhood. Have never even seen one - anywhere.

Ok, so who will be reading THE FLEDGLING by the great, Octavia E. Butler? Have you started yet? Requested your copy from the library or elsewhere?

What’s your favorite novel by her?

A beautiful new collector’s edition of PARABLE OF THE TALENTS, has just been released. With a new introduction by Akwaeke Emezi. https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/tit...

ColumbusReads wrote: "Nadine in California wrote: "I've had this on my shelf for a long time - Octavia Butler is one of my favorites! I found a copy in a little free library in my neighborhood and gave it to a friend - ..."
https://littlefreelibrary.org/map/

ColumbusReads wrote: "Ok, so who will be reading THE FLEDGLING by the great, Octavia E. Butler? Have you started yet? Requested your copy from the library or elsewhere?

What’s your favorite novel by her?"

I haven't started yet, but she is one of my all time favorite writers and my favorite is the entire Lilith's Brood series - I can't think of them as individual books, maybe because I bought them in a single volume.

Sarah wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "Nadine in California wrote: "I've had this on my shelf for a long time - Octavia Butler is one of my favorites! I found a copy in a little free library in my neighborhood and ..."

Thank you

i havent loved an octavia butler book yet. interested in checking this one out. i rented the audio through my library and started it already. gonna pause for a few weeks so it's fresh for me in jan. im intrigued.

I really really want to join, if I manage to squeeze it among other reading commitments. I'm very keen on afrofuturism and Butler is still one the best. Fledgling would probably qualify as afrojujuism, but it is also one of the few stand-alone novels she published.

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "I really really want to join, if I manage to squeeze it among other reading commitments. I'm very keen on afrofuturism and Butler is still one the best. Fledgling would probably qualify as afrojuju..."

Did not know that. Thanks.

ColumbusReads wrote: "Ok, so who will be reading THE FLEDGLING by the great, Octavia E. Butler? Have you started yet? Requested your copy from the library or elsewhere?

What’s your favorite novel by her?

A beautiful n..."

A new collectors edition of PARABLE OF THE SOWER has also been released today with a foreword by LeVar Burton.

I’ve read it before—I think it’s one of her best books actually!

I think each person who writes about vampirism has a different metaphor in mind, and I think the way Butler uses it in "Fledgling" is really interesting.

Sarah wrote: "I think each person who writes about vampirism has a different metaphor in mind, and I think the way Butler uses it in "Fledgling" is really interesting."

I agree, and Butler's lens on vampirism is interesting to say the least. I read it earlier this year and the theme of adulthood thrust upon a child really stood out to me.

ColumbusReads wrote: "Ok, so who will be reading THE FLEDGLING by the great, Octavia E. Butler? Have you started yet? Requested your copy from the library or elsewhere?

What’s your favorite novel by her?

A beautiful n..."

I just downloaded The Fledgling on my kindle. It will be the 1st book I've ever listened to, so I'm excited!

Sarah wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "Nadine in California wrote: "I've had this on my shelf for a long time - Octavia Butler is one of my favorites! I found a copy in a little free library in my neighborhood and ..."

Thank you SO much. Could have easily looked this up but never thought to. Now I plan to visit the little libraries in my area and hope to set up my own.

I just checked this book out from the library but am a slow reader so I don't know if I'll read it in time to contribute anything. Am really looking forward to everyone's thoughts on the book.

- Has anyone started reading FLEDGLING?
-Have you read anything by OCTAVIA BUTLER before? Either her series or singular books? What’s your favorite?
-What’s your impression of this author?

I have put the book on hold, but meanwhile started listening to the audiobook, which I'm enjoying so I may just continue that. I feel like I read this book when it first came out, but don't remember much about it, so it's feeling like a new read. I'm definitely a fan of Octavia Butler's work (small trivia, I grew up in Pasadena where she lived). The Earthseed novels were absolutely formative for me when I read them in college, these were the first "clifi" novels I ever read, before it was a thing. Kindred is so powerful, and the Xenogenesis series so thought-provoking and challenging. I'm really looking forward to this discussion.

Discussion schedule:

Chap 1-6 today thru Jan 8th
Chap 7-13 Jan 9th thru Jan 14th
Chap 14-20 Jan 15th thru 19th

Entire book open January 20th

I don't have any thoughts on Fledgling yet except to say I'm engrossed. This is the kind of book I'd have loved reading when I was younger and apparently am still into today.

The book version I'm reading has a reading group guide in the back so I thought I'd post the first questions they raise if that's okay:

"Compare the vampirism portrayed in Fledgling to other vampire mythologies. What commonalities or differences does it have to them, and why do you think the author made these choices? What impact does having a Black female vampire as the protagonist have on the typical vampire narrative?"

Yes, that's an interesting question. Vampires have always been about sex and eroticism, from Carmilla to Dracula to Anne Rice to Twilight. Fledgling is no different in that respect, although having the vampire person be a Black female (child) does turn the power dynamic on its head.

I'll go ahead and out my biggest beef with this book - I think it's already obvious by Ch 6 though I listened to the audio book so don't have the chapter breakdown in front of me - if Renee/Shori had been in the body of a 15 or 17 year old, rather than a pre-pubescent 10 or 11 year old, I think that would have been a better book. What do other people think? What is gained by having Shori be in a what presents as a child's body? Is it worth it?

Kari wrote: "I don't have any thoughts on Fledgling yet except to say I'm engrossed. This is the kind of book I'd have loved reading when I was younger and apparently am still into today.

The book version I'm ..."

Great idea, Kari.

thanks for that questions kari! i think a lot of my thoughts include info from later chapters, so i'll hold off for a bit, but excited there are some book club qs in your book!

thanks for your question too, rose. i know i realllllly bristled at the author's choice here with shori's age. and it has made for some interesting thinking. themes and questions of consent continued for me throughout this book in other areas too, and what i do love about the text is that it gives me opportunty and reason to ponder.

Rose wrote: "I'll go ahead and out my biggest beef with this book - I think it's already obvious by Ch 6 though I listened to the audio book so don't have the chapter breakdown in front of me - if Renee/Shori had been in the body of a 15 or 17 year old, rather than a pre-pubescent 10 or 11 year old, I think that would have been a better book. What do other people think? What is gained by having Shori be in a what presents as a child's body? Is it worth it?"

Rose that's a great question/s. Tbh this disturbed me and maybe still does, and Butler doesn't let you forget it by mentioning clothes being to big, and having to be lifted etc. Its hard to forget that our protagonist looks like a young black girl. Maybe that's her point?

Children in our society have little power and agency in general. If you also add to that gender and race then little black girls have some of the least amount of power in this society. Generally when I think of vampires I think white, adult male from the upper class or upper class adjacent, making them the epitome of the top of the pile as far as power goes. Talk about flipping the script with Renee/Shori! She looks like or represents the polar opposite of the traditional vampire character.

sammy wrathborne starjelly wrote: "thanks for that questions kari! i think a lot of my thoughts include info from later chapters, so i'll hold off for a bit, but excited there are some book club qs in your book!"

Sammy, I can't wait to hear your thought as more of the book becomes open for discussion.

Just a thought that the Rene/Shori herself reflects on the fact that after researching vampire information that those myths don't resemble or tell her much about her kind. I guess setting the stage for us readers that this isn't "that kind of vampire" story.

I finished the audio book and really enjoyed the voicing of all the characters. Now have a digital copy of the text through Libby to check out a few things that weren't clear to me, or that just went by too fast. Looking forward to the discussion.

This is the first Octavia Butler book I've read & it is a very, very uncomfortable read for me. To have a protagonist that is a young child who is involved with an adult male sexually is very triggering for me. It makes me wonder where Butler's head was at the time of writing this. It is an unhealthy PTSD-triggering book for me, but I will try to get through it a bit at a time. Now, at 70 years old, I'd have thought I couldn't be touched much, having worked through heartbreakingly tough issues. Yet, here I am. For me, reading is about enjoyment &/or learning. This is neither for me. This might be one I DNF. However, I hear that Butler is a great author and I do like her writing style, so I'll keep an open mind with her other books.

I love reading this, especially since I read the Gilda Stories late last year. So black, female vampire is very current in my mind. I've only just started, but I'm really interested to see the black, female vampire in a child in this version.

Chap 7-13 Jan 9th thru Jan 14th

Barb wrote: "This is the first Octavia Butler book I've read & it is a very, very uncomfortable read for me. To have a protagonist that is a young child who is involved with an adult male sexually is very trigg..."

I think it's a contradiction that's so challenging to process and it took me quite a few pages to adjust - that the way she looks is not representative of who she is. She is an adult in a child's body, and has complete agency over her body and over the adults she physically interacts with. She is physically and mentally stronger than they are and has to force herself on them physically until they submit, although she tries to use as little force as possible. So she's actually the rapist. If she still had her memory, we'd have more of a sense that she's been alive for 53 years and her physical appearance wouldn't be so confusing. But then, the book wouldn't be nearly so powerful either.

Just ordered. I’ll hop in when I’m caught up.

Nadine, I agree that the power imbalance - with Shori, in the body of one of the least powerful type of persons in our society - a Black, female child - clearly the aggressor, and the one in control, is what makes this book so powerful. It really forces you to think about consent and power.

I guess I still wonder if it would have been as effective and powerful had Shori's body appeared 15 rather than 11 - sexually mature rather than pre-pubescent, with the power dynamic maybe slightly attenuated but still intact. When I imagine the book that way, I think the impact would have been similar, without the nauseating yuck factor. But, maybe I'm wrong, and it would have been more like one of "those" vampire books, where the sex appeal of the vampire basically overwhelms other factors?

I'm honestly not sure. I'm trying to run the thought experiment in my head, replacing Shori with a slightly older version of herself throughout. I think it works, but I'm not sure.

Rose wrote: "I'm honestly not sure. I'm trying to run the thought experiment in my head, replacing Shori with a slightly older version of herself throughout. I think it works, but I'm not sure."

I don't think so, but I'll run that thought experiment too. Butler compounds it by making Wright a big, hairy bear of a man. I love what you say about upending power dynamics by making the most powerful person a female, black child. Which could be done in such a ham-handed way, but for me Butler makes it a fact without belaboring it - or even mentioning it. She really treats her readers with respect and never spoon-feeds

I absolutely adore how the novel comments and takes from known vampire lore while still being its own thing for example; Vampires are mostly pale, tall, et, except Shuri. Not only does she look different, but is more “skilled” than other vampire due to her skin; drawing clear parallels to irl racism, specifically white people being threatened by POC culture and characteristics. Shuri’s amnesia also stood out to me as a parallel to bipoc history. Shuri has her entire life and culture stolen from her and has to re-learn it all from strangers. Much like how indigenous tribes like my own have had to piece together our history and languages. Shuri also cannot remember her family like many African Americans cannot know their ancestry due to the slave trade. Butler is such an intelligent author. It is a shame we can never get more from her.

I'm 2021, a series adaptation was announced for HBO with JJ Abrams and Issa Rae as producers. I have no idea if it has been scrapped or is in development hell.
How do those who have read this feel abt an adaptation?
Some major changes would have to be made- like age-ing up Shuri- and that's difficult be we have no way of knowing if Octavia Butler would approve any changes.
With the resurgence of Twilight popularity, I could see HBO making Fledgeling their woke-er, grittier and sexier version.

I’ve prosecuted child sex cases and worked with survivors as an advocate and therapist.

No, the imagery of adults having sex with a prepubescent child in this context does’t work for me on any level.

It resembles offender excuses and wasn’t necessary, IMO.

Some offenders claim the child initiated sex, the child was in control, or the offender was not responsible because they were high or drunk (scent or being bitten), or The child enjoyed it/was aroused.

To me It’s not flipping the script.

It was like reading an offender’s script.

These justifications and distortions used by offenders. It’s disturbing how often it works IRL and people blame the child.

The vampires physically drew the line at her age. (Although there was still open admiration of her child body, specifically being able to hold her small body unlike an adult.)

The humans ‘couldn’t help it’ and there was again, specific enjoyment of her small child size body.

I don’t find value in presenting that imagery in this context.


It wasn’t necessary. They didn’t have to have sex to be bonded, fiercely loyal, or feed. There could still be discrimination because of her age. (Or the excuse used by some) There could still be dramatic juxtaposition of her tiny size and fierce fighting ability. There could still be her confusion as she develops and adults with boundaries.

I’m not sure why Butler chose this direction. I haven’t looked, but I’d be surprised if she wasn’t asked.

Regardless of her intent, which I assume was NOT to normalize graphic imagery of an adult having sex with a child, functionally, there it is.

While it is thought provoking, I didn’t think it was worth it.

But I do appreciate the conversation.

Thanks for your comments, Tracey, I really appreciate your perspective.

Silver wrote: "I absolutely adore how the novel comments and takes from known vampire lore while still being its own thing for example; Vampires are mostly pale, tall, et, except Shuri. Not only does she look dif..."

Those are such great points about amnesia and erasure, Silver. Really interesting perspective.

Barb, I had a hard time with this book as well. I'm not coming from the same situation you're coming from, but for me the physical looking age of Shori as that of a 10 or 11 year old, it broke my immersion when there was sex or even just a romantic love scene between her and human adult symbionts. I couldn't get out of my head that this adult was looking and interacting with someone who looked like a child.

Nadine, I think in the context of this story she had to loose her memory. It wouldn't have been as effective if she hadn't. I agree the book wouldn't have been as powerful. Her amnesia rendered her childlike and having to learn again as if she were a child learning new things. Its in the context of the image of this child actually the one holding power that flips the script. Still, in the end it made it difficult for me to get through.

Rose, the issue of consent really starts to become prominent in this section of the book doesn't it? Do the symbionts really give or have consent? Wright expresses that he really couldn't say no or walk away even if he wanted to. It's also clear that Brook and Celia are going through withdrawals since their Inas died. They were essentially addicts. I'm now thinking back to all the vampire books I've read in that light of consent. I never thought about that back then.

Silver, how insightful. I hadn't made those connections. Definitely something to mull over.

hell yea, silver. these were the parts of the writing that were super powerful for me too. disruption, disconnection, lost lineages, working to reconnect the pieces, find family (if possible), and build chosen family to survive. so many parallels, and (for me) they became stronger and more pronounced through the end of the book.

no idea if i'd like it anywhere near as much as the book -- always the fear. but i'd deffffff watch a tv rendition of this one. and with issa rae creating it?? yes plz!

Just finished the book and I truly enjoyed it. It was my first OB book as well as my first vampire book. Seeing this book does not fall in line with the usual imagery surrounding vampires I doubt I'll read another but I am certainly looking forward to my next Butler novel. She pushed the boundaries of our norms, of our folklore, of culture and so much more. I loved Shori's voice and how strong and poingnet it was though she had lost her 53yrs of memories. It challenged me to relinquish my thoughts about judging people on their looks, gender, and sexual orientation. I often found myself saying "I feel that too" when she thought how she wanted to please someone or liked being near someone though she was not certain why. A compelling read for me for sure.

Nadine in California wrote: "Barb wrote: "This is the first Octavia Butler book I've read & it is a very, very uncomfortable read for me. To have a protagonist that is a young child who is involved with an adult male sexually ..."

Thank-you for clearing this up for me. Being triggered often blocks my ability to let the rest of the story in. However, I need to stand firm with Tracey on things.
I'm a retired mental health professional & have had to work with my share of pedophiles. For some reason this never triggered me. I've also worked with child victims, as well as women who were victims in childhood. Still not triggered. I think the difference is that when working, I could emotionally separate myself from my clients.
However, when reading or listening to a story, I am fully immersed willingly & things are 'happening' right there with me.

Jennifer wrote: "Just finished the book and I truly enjoyed it. It was my first OB book as well as my first vampire book. Seeing this book does not fall in line with the usual imagery surrounding vampires I doubt I..."

I love Butler, and my favorite of all is her Xenogenesis trilogy - Dawn, Adulthood Rites and Imago. I read them published in one book under the title Lilith's Brood. More of a traditional sci fi set up, but the same challenges with theme.

One thing I've noticed in all the Butler books I've read is that I think they all involve creation of families - often strange ones.... I think she's someone who was a solitary person in real life, so it's an interesting subject for her to return to....

Tracey wrote: "I’ve prosecuted child sex cases and worked with survivors as an advocate and therapist.

No, the imagery of adults having sex with a prepubescent child in this context does’t work for me on any le..."

Ditto to everything you said. Perhaps read my comment in response to Nadine's, which will explain more.

I think Octavia Butler had a really complicated relationship with her own body -- she was quite tall/large for a woman. I wonder if that played into some of the body size choices in this novel.

Here's an essay that examines that contrast:

https://speculative.sunygeneseoenglis...