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Wives and Daughters
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Wives and Daughters: Week 4: Chapters 23-30
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At the Easter ball, besides the personal equations and dynamics, there is also much of broader social dynamics on display, especially with the incident that takes place with the Towers’ family’s later arrival and their guests’, the Duchess in particular, showing so little regard for the townsfolk. Lady Harriet sets about putting this right too, while Molly’s observation (Clare/Mrs Gibson may not have got the import) shows great perception.
At and before the ball, we see also the tensions between Mr Preston and Cynthia, the latter happy to consign his nosegay into the fire and slight his invitation for a dance though she is obliged to dance with his later. The awkward Lord Hollingford might take up his dancing duties reluctantly but he does seem to have taken notice of Molly and while Mrs Gibson may not have held it against her, it has sparked off some reaction. Her closeness to Lady Harriet too irks Mrs Gibson no less, though this isn’t unsurprising.
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Things are going a little bit wrong for Molly here though she little realises it as Roger seems to have fallen in love with Cynthia while Molly feels it without truly realizing why she does. Cynthia’s own attentions to Roger seem so far just her action in line with her own nature rather than with any true feeling. And perhaps his and Osborne’s pleasant company distracts her from the trouble with Mr Preston.
Osborne’s own marriage seems ill thought out though his wife comes across as harmless enough so far and they happy enough. But what lies ahead for them when the secret is revealed?
Mr Gibson on the other hand may is taking an Ostrich-like attitude to his own marriage simply closing his eyes to or not pronouncing the unpleasant parts such that they won’t affect him. Initially I was wondering about this but now begin to think that it might actually be the most sensible way out for if he simply acknowledges or voices his opinions, nothing will come out of it but an atmosphere of unpleasantness in the home—and so far, while Mrs Gibson can be cruel or selfish, the general atmosphere while she has her way is a peaceful one with at least some semblance of happiness.
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For all his intelligence and sensitivity, Osborne doesn’t seem to have enough to really ‘see’ or understand his father while he seems to be more perceptive when it comes to Molly. On the one side he is weak in terms of his fear of revealing his secret or unwillingness to actual do any proper work to make a living, on the other he is at least trying to get his poetry published—a not very grand effort may be, but at least better than not trying at all. Then again he is content to live on Roger’s money from his fellowship rather than resolve things for himself.
Lady Clementina wrote: "OsborneFor all his intelligence and sensitivity, Osborne doesn’t seem to have enough to really ‘see’ or understand his father while he seems to be more perceptive when it comes to Molly. On the on..."
Osborne is an interesting character. I empathize with him at times and am frustrated by his actions at others. He is one of the more interesting characters in Wives and Daughters.
I'm not sure if I told y'all I primarily experienced W&D via
Elizabeth Cleghorn Gaskell: Wives and Daughters (Dramatic Reading)
https://librivox.app/book/9250
They did a good job portraying all the nuances so far,
In Chapter 23, I was interested in Osborne's referring to the characterization of the French as "Johnny Crapaud." Just as the English used "John Bull" to refer to themselves, and the Americans used "Uncle Sam" for the same purpose, the English essentially were calling the French "toads," for that is what crapaud means. To add insult to injury, many English referred to the French coat of arms with its three fleurs-de-lys (lily flowers) as "three toads erect, saltant."
This being the case I see difficulties ahead for the Squire accepting Aimee as a member of the family.
Mod
For all his intelligence and sensitivity, Osborne doesn’t seem to have enough to really ‘see’ or understand his father while he seems to be more perceptive when it c..."
Glad you're enjoying the audio, Francis. I used the Librivox version for one of the Trollope books we discussed previously and enjoyed my experience too.
Re Osborne, I would agree as to one's reaction shifting between sympathy and frustration--that's what makes im human and relatable I guess.
Mod
I assume the past relationship with France with responsible for this attitude--the French being seen as 'enemies' or objects of dislike--perhaps more so by people like the Squire who seems to have pretty strong and indeed fixed opinions.
Lady Clementina wrote: "Re Osborne, I would agree as to one's reaction shifting between sympathy and frustration--that's what makes im human and relatable I guess."I have a similar mix of reactions toward Cynthia. While her behaviour is understandable, it is also parasitic - sucking compassion and love out of everyone she comes close to, by all means at her disposal (and they are many). That she is half-aware of her own character makes it worse, not better. Her past is not the general excuse as that she uses it again and again.
Mr. Gibson, too, is an ambivalent character. I can sympathize with the mess in which he has brought himself through his marriage, but his reaction is reprehensible, at least when it comes to Molly. He chooses to turn a blind eye, and although he loves her, he does nothing at all to defend her, or to protect her from Mrs. Gibson's sugar-coated tyranny.
Lady Clementina wrote: "Jim wrote: "In Chapter 23, I was interested in Osborne's referring to the characterization of the French as "Johnny Crapaud." Just as the English used "John Bull" to refer to themselves, and the Am..."It's not just that. The "no popery" Gordon riots had taken place in 1780, so there was an ongoing anti-Catholic bias.
Jim wrote: "It's not just that. The "no popery" Gordon riots had taken place in 1780, so there was an ongoing anti-Catholic bias."and closer to the time of the novel, there was the Catholic Emancipation Act (1829, allowing Irish Catholic MPs), which met with very strong opposition.
My impression of Osbourn is that he is a kind, romantic young man who is still not an adult in his attitudes. No truly mature adult would marry and then leave his spouse along for long periods of time because he is afraid to tell his daddy. He seems unable to grasp the fact that being a poet and living on his father's money is no longer an option. He has a wife and a child on the way. He needs to tell his father what is going on, accept the consequences, and find work of some sort, even if it is work he does not like. He also needs to quit accepting money from Roger.I'm disappointed in Mr. Gibson because, as many of you have pointed out, he is going along with things and leaving Molly to handle the emotional burdens of Mrs. Gibson's selfishness. I was so angry at the way Mrs. Gibson treated the wonderful Roger (who really needs to see that Molly is the girl for him) that I almost threw my iPad across the room! As for Cynthia, I continue to like her, but I want to know what her secret is and how that snake Mr. Preston is involved.
I was enthralled by another reference in W&D that stopped me short. Gaskell refers to Mrs Gibson's "Alnaschar vision." Interestingly, it's a quite apropos description of Mrs G's weakness: Alnaschar a beggar in the Arabian Nights who destroys his livelihood by indulging in visions of riches and grandeur.
Indeed, Osborne was too self-indulgent or "sensitive," as he termed it, to bear well with the Squire's gloomy fits, or too frequent querulousness……..….’ I'm not truthful myself, I do like truth in others—at least, sometimes." She ended her sentence with another smile, but it was rather faint and watery.’ (Cynthia)
Both Cynthia and Osbourne could be transported into the twenty-first century and not feel out of place at all. They seem typical of those today who show a lack of resilience, bemoaning their lot, looking around for others or something else to blame and generally feeling that the world is against them.
The fact that they have both acted foolishly (I am assuming from Cynthia’s demeanour that she has done something she sorely regrets) and are now paying the price of that foolishness, has resulted in their severe depressions coupled with an unwillingness to take advice from those who love them.
Nevertheless there are still things to like about both of them.
I liked the way that Osbourne fell in love with a girl not of his class, not of his race, not of his education and continued to cherish her despite all the problems that brought to him. His respect for Aimée despite her lowly position in life contrasts greatly with his horrendously prejudiced father. Also his deep love for his brother has to be commended. Something that never struck me before in previous readings was that if Osbourne had been the second son, many of his problems might not have mattered. Having such a rigid high Tory for a father and being the heir meant that he was on a hiding to nothing trying to live the life he wanted.
As for Cynthia, her kindness to Molly is deserving of praise and she has some spirit, even if it does appear only in bursts. Her support of Molly against her mother is admirable. We have seen already how she has respected Mr. Gibson, even down to taking his ‘emulsions’ which she hates, but her admiration and respect of Roger deserves comment. Unlike her mother, whose every strategy is designing, Cynthia does not seem to have a selfish motive for liking Roger. It wasn’t even her realisation of his feelings for her.
’ Cynthia was not capable of returning such feelings; she had had too little true love in her life, and perhaps too much admiration to do so; but she appreciated this honest ardour, this loyal worship that was new to her experience. Such appreciation, and such respect for his true and affectionate nature, gave a serious tenderness to her manner to Roger, which allured him with a fresh and separate grace.’
Whether or not either of them have the ability to overcome their problems without serious repercussions remains to be seen, but that almost stubborn fatality that they both possess seems ominous.
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Lady Clementina, Moderator
(last edited Jul 31, 2024 08:22AM)
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I have a similar mix of reactio..."
I find myself sympathising more with Cynthia than Mr Gibson, she's still a teen, perhaps not entirely able to break out of the traits her upbringing have had her develop, and her concern for Molly is genuine.
Mr Gibson, as you say simply adopts an ostrich attitude for his own peace of mind little caring for what Molly is going through apart which makes his concern feel superficial.
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Yes, of course.
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Mrs Gibson's attitudes are determined solely by the social and monetary gain she sees from any acquaintance--thus she accepts the Cumnors' condescesion and neglect and treats Roger as she does since he isn't the heir.
I think we'll get to know Cynthia secret fairly soon.
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….’ I'm not truthful myself, I do like truth ..."
Very true Trev. Both do have characteristics that are redeeming but the problematic traits aren't ones we can ignore either.
And you caught on to a good point there about Osborne's position--had he been second son, none of this would have mattered much. On the other hand, Roger perhaps because of his appearance also but may be also as second second, suffered in the opposite way, neither his talents not true character (save in a few aspects) being seen or valued by his parents.
Lady Clementina wrote: "her care for Molly is genuine"... yes, but ... I can't help feeling that her prime motivation is that she wants to be loved and admired. Does she perceive that Molly is depressed? Does she ask her what's wrong?
It may well be that - this time round at least - I am biased against Cynthia. As someone said, she (like Osborne) is a very 21st-century personality - "a lack of resilience, bemoaning their lot, looking around for others or something else to blame and generally feeling that the world is against them."
She strongly reminds me of two persons I have known in my life who had undergone psychotherapy to overcome the perceived wrongs they had experienced in their childhood. The wonderful outcome of the therapy was that they felt entitled to push their woes and whims on whoever crossed their path, and to demand their share of attention and affection ruthlessly, as compensation for what they felt they had been deprived of in childhood or whenever. To be clear, it's a good thing to learn to love and value yourself - but these two definitely had been given an overdose, and turned out insufferable.
It's true Cynthia is still very young. But she resembles her mother enough to make me doubt whether she will change much.
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... yes, but ... I can't help feeling that her prime motivation is that she wants to be loved and admired. Does she perceive that Molly is de..."
Fair enough. Those examples are certainly valid ones, and you're right about her wanted to be admired and loved--the latter likely because she hasn't been all her life. She may be superficial but at least her concern for Molly and respect for Mr Gibson are genuine unlike her mother where it's all pretence. I don't think her as bad as her mother--she can become that way but Molly and Mr Gibson's love can prevent her from turning her so.
Nancy wrote: "My impression of Osbourn is that he is a kind, romantic young man who is still not an adult in his attitudes. No truly mature adult would marry and then leave his spouse along for long periods of t..."I agree with your observation of Osbourn. Please don't waste an IPad on Mrs. Gibson. That would be a wasted opportunity.
Elizabeth Gaskell’s mastery of description and use of metaphor is exquisite and is something which ought to get more recognition. This short paragraph about Mrs. Gibson leaves the reader in no doubt about that character’s annoying personality.’ Mrs. Gibson, it is true, was ready to go over the ground as many times as any one liked; but her words were always like ready-made clothes, and never fitted individual thoughts. Anybody might have used them, and, with a change of proper names, they might have served to describe any ball. She repeatedly used the same language in speaking about it, till Molly knew the sentences and their sequence even to irritation.’
Trev, I agree with you. Mrs. Gaskell’s prose is beautiful and shockingly succinct for a Victorian writer.
After all the secretiveness and whispered mentions of Osborne’s marriage, we finally learn more about it and of his wife Aimee, a Frenchwoman who was just a ‘bonne’ until she met and fell in love with Osborne. From what little we’ve heard of her, she seems a pretty but perhaps silly little thing, and seemingly free of any of those social or mercenary motives we might associate with Mrs Gibson/Clare. Her choices are fairly simple too, it would seem and it is Osborne’s extravagance or ‘dainty tastes’ that have got him into the financial trouble he is in. This along with the burden of his secret which he is too scared to reveal to his father (despite advice from Roger who knows and Mr Gibson who doesn’t) has begin to tell on his health, it seems and there is the slightest hint of trouble.
The two Hamleys are now regular visitors to the Gibson home and welcome ones too, more or less, though Mrs Gibson who naturally wishes for Cynthia to marry the ‘heir’ does much to discourage the obviously smitten Roger’s visits, even being rude to his face. But then she changes and one wonders if Osborne’s possible health worries are the cause since all Clare can think of is good marriages and improving their social position.
There has also been the Easter charity ball, an event shared between three towns and the first ever ball for Molly. Cynthia who has really taken to her puts in much effort at dressing Molly and she makes quite a success of herself even being noticed by Lord Hollingford. Mrs Gibson doesn’t grudge her this attention thankfully though her mortification at Lady Harriet’s friendship for Molly (when she’s known her so much longer) as well as other little actions like not passing on Lady Harriet’s regards among other things shows her nature is much the same.
The relationship between Osborne and Mr Hamley continues to be tenuous with both misinterpreting each other, whether in terms of wishes or true feeling or even the real state of things. One can see that a good heart-to-heart conversation would make all the difference but that is one thing that never seems to come off. Mr Hamley himself is weakening, struggling with his troubles, monetary and otherwise with only Roger providing some form of comfort.
Cynthia’s secret hasn’t been revealed but it seems it may be serious too, since she interprets it as her doom. So much so that she is willing to take a governess post and leave the life she has at Hollingford. And of course, it is all connected with Mr Preston. But what of this new rumour that Mrs Gibson herself was going to marry him?
Matters of the heart come up in other ways too, with Roger now quite taken by Cynthia and Molly heart breaking as a result though she hardly realises it beyond the actual pain. Osborne interestingly seems to have ‘seen’ how Cynthia’s beauty is one that will be short-lived while Molly’s is one that will carry for long.