SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

A few questions to get us started:


1. What did you think of the world?
2. What did you think of the characters?
3. What worked or didn't for you?
4. Overall thoughts?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

My review is short so I'll just post it here:

Rage! Rage! Rage against the patriarchy!

Underneath this novel's fantasy gothic setting is a very intriguing, complex and thoughtful exploration of women's burdens, limitations and trauma under the pressures and oppression of patriarchy, the ways patriarchy defines women, their futures and their choices and the way it can hijack their lives through shame, guilt and an impossible sense of responsibility to others. As immense as that is, Slatter goes even further, digging into how women sometimes turn against, undermine, manipulate and even exploit other women and girls in their efforts to survive in a world that gives them so little agency, forcing them at times to resort to grasping at any source of power within their reach, like (forbidden) education, esoteric knowledge/lore, beauty, youth, social status and wealth, and so often at the cost of some bitter price they must pay sooner or later. Intense, honest and emotionally heavy, brimming with barely held-back feminine rage and regret at the seemingly endless injustices women must suffer, but very worthwhile.

I gave it 4 stars. It's not really the kind of story I would gravitate to on my own, but I'm very glad I read it. Slatter is very talented writer with a lot she clearly wants to say and I have a lot of respect for her after reading this.

One thing I felt detracted from the novel was how heavy and dense it was, both emotionally and with amount of ideas and perspectives Slatter seeks to explore. It's very reminiscent of Wuthering Heights (which I suspect Slatter has read many times), where it's like you don't get a chance to breathe because of the very weighty atmosphere of the story.

The "wolf smut" (or whatever you want to call it) was a little weird--I'm not trying to kink shame, but it felt a little intrusive to the overall vibe of the story and I wasn't entirely sure what all Slatter wanted to say with the whole idea of wolf men and wolf wives, aside from maybe some commentary of the how patriarchy/civilization has alienated men from their own nature to the point they are unfit as partners for women, perhaps? As an aside to more coherent main themes that focused on women's perspectives, it didn't feel as flushed out.

I enjoyed the read.

I had zero expectations going in and was honestly surprised by how much I liked the book. It was the witch book I've been looking for.

Ngl, there was a point where I thought it would take a turn towards incest and I'm glad that didn't happen.

The wolf lore was all about women's power, no? So I think Asher's relations with Eli were about that? That's probably why she left without him. At the end of the book she's come into her own and doesn't have to be in service of and rely on anyone anymore.

Did Luned deserve to get away after what she'd done? That part felt a bit odd to me.

> Did Luned deserve to get away after what she'd done? That part felt a bit odd to me.
My understanding is that our heroine thought she was no better, so she could not judge Luned and let her go?

1. What did you think of the world?
I loved the world, all these stories and glimpses of other books. Also, it was interesting to analyse the stories they tell during the book for hidden messages.

2. What did you think of the characters?
I didn't like any of them (children excluded) and didn't care what happened in their story.

3. What worked or didn't, and what overall thoughts?
I liked the tone and the world of the book. At times, they reminded me of "The Hazel Wood" by Melissa Albert, which I love! But characters and writing did not work for me at all. I think, in general, it was an interesting read but not super enjoyable.

For me, Asher's response to and choices regarding Luned is integral to what I feel Slatter is trying to do with this novel as an exploration of systems of oppression that harm women. Luned is not very likeable as is and what she did to the previous governess is abhorrent, but Asher still finds it necessary for herself to choose to be merciful because it's the only thing she can do that doesn't make her part of that system of oppression that put her and Luned in their respective positions where they made the choices they made.

That part where Luned tells the story of the path of thorns and then says her feet hurt is a moment of radical empathy for Asher, and I think as Slatter intended, should be for the reader too. Slatter chose to have Luned be the one to tell this story, which explains the novel's title, for a reason. I don't see how in this world of the novel there can be real justice, only further victimization and punishment that results in nothing more than more pain and trauma, and Asher chooses not to participate in that by subjecting Luned to any more than she already has, regardless of the heinousness of her murdering the governess.

I think this is something Slatter was very deliberate about. I don't know her personal politics, but in anti-carceral/prison abolition feminism, we see subjecting people, and especially women, to a "justice" system that is actually just does them more harm is not the answer, and that we need consider how our own choices in responding to something like murder is the starting point for what kind of society we wish to build. Do we want a society that is merciful, compassionate and empathetic, capable to helping people heal and grow, or one that is a cruel cycle of oppression that just begets more harm and trauma? I personally am very comfortable with Asher's choice to help Luned leave and hopefully start a new life somewhere else, especially because she does so with impressing on Luned this is an act of mercy rooted in compassion and empathy and not because Luned "deserves" it or it's a favor because Asher likes her (because she clearly does not).

The World. Vampire kingdom to the North, Witches guarding the border. Migrating herds of mer people. Ghosts committing murder. Werewolves driven from their homes. Populous in denial. Church persecution of the witches and wolves protecting them. No obvious law enforcement especially for rich landowners. Science replacing folklore “ magic”. Almost no modern conveniences.
I thought it was a great escape from reality. Inventive and a good platform for future stories.

Scott wrote: "Inventive and a good platform for future stories."

There are already many stories set in this universe! And more coming soon :)

I did enjoy this book, and especially the quality of the writing. I liked the way so many of Asher's actions had unforseen consequences, as she gradually lost control of the situation. I thought the characters were well-drawn, and realistic, especially the villagers and servants.
There were a few niggles: Asher was forever being rescued from a murderous attack by someone walking in, and often as not, killing her attacker - that felt a bit lazy; and the whole plot hinged on her determination to resurrect her mother, because of a promise her mother extracted - it didn't ring true for me - I think Asher was strong enough to see what a foolish plan that was; and finally, she stole a magnificent stallion to make her escape - surely a guaranteed way to be tracked and caught.
These were minor annoyances. Overall, I loved the book.

I saw the same "Asher is rescued and someone is killed" pattern, Graeme. It even happens at the very end of the book! There are a few elements like this, like the high body count, that I wouldn't expect to see in a book with such a subdued or serious tone. I think it worked well, especially since there was "justice" in all but one of the deaths (Archie).

I'm not sure about the first-person present-tense narration. The 28-year-old narrator here felt a little too similar to the 50-something protagonist of Slatter's Of Sorrow and Such. At times, when Asher is talking about events that happened after a break in the narration--i.e. a couple of days passing--the verb tense got slightly confusing.

But on the whole, I liked it a lot. It felt gothic even when sunshiny days and light coming in windows came up frequently. Along with the evils of patriarchy I saw women supporting each other, the instinct to protect children (Asher was less cold-hearted than she thought herself to be, both to them and to Eli, I think), and the generational effects of abuse. I appreciate stories where magic is mysterious, and this story had some nice squishy blood and soul magic, and the herbalism was nicely done, too.

I am glad other people have deeper thoughts about stories than I do. Literature.
That is good!
I get caught up in whether my mind is immersed in the story, or whether I get yanked out by things I don't find believable / ring true. So I am pleased to be reminded, by others here, about the messages: Patriarchy, education, lore, feminine rage and so on.
🩸👏

A thing I was thinking of in today's VBC, and this is not a jab at anyone, but we spent so long talking about the "crimes" of the women characters, but we sort of brushed aside what the men were doing. Why do you think we were so hard on Luned, say, and less hard on Luther?

To me Luned was redeemable even though her crime was horrible while nothing about Luther was redeemable. Luned was shown as more complicated and we could see the why to her crime while not condoning it. Luther was just evil. So I would say I’m harder on him than Luned. I was 💯 ok with his death (to be clear in fiction, not ok with murder in real life 🤣) I think we discussed Luned more because there was more gray, more contributing factors to her crime; also her story line showed something interesting about Asher, her mercy, her pity etc. Luther is just the same old abuser we all know and many of us have survived.

Didn't like this from Luther:

'Although we hardly need you; my wife is more than capable of ensuring they know their letters and numbers. Next year Connell will be sent to a boarding school, but until then he requires supervision and some tutoring. The girls, whatever you choose to teach them will do well enough.’

Also the sleeping around