Victorians! discussion

Brief summary
We learn that Dolly now stays at the Warren. We also that Mr. Haredale is away from home after his knowledge of the ghost story. Mrs. Varden and Miggs are active Lord Gordon's Association. And Mr. Varden has joined Royal East London Volunteers.

Mr. Haredale visits Mr. Varden and lets him know that he'll stay at Mrs. Rudge's old lodgings. He doesn't give a clear explanation of his actions to Varden. Mr. Haredale's haggard, pale, and worn look, as was observed by Mr. Varden, makes it clear that Haredale is wighed down by some secret. It may be that the secret is connected to the strange man, for Haredale casually inquires from Varden a description of the man. Mr. Haredale keeps night vigil on former lodgings of Mrs. Rudge. He seems to be waiting for someone or something to happen.

A chance encounter between Sir John Chester and Mr. Haredale in the company of Mr. Gashford elucidates their relationship. All three have been once school fellows in Paris. We learn the character of Gashford and another villain is revealed. :) During their conversation, Lord Gordon passes them with a great company of supporters. Being introduced to Lord Gordon, Haredale and Gordon exchange some unpleasant words. Haredale was leaving when he was attacked with a stone. Roused, Haredale attacks Gashford. A greater skirmish was avoided by the interference John Grueby (Gordon's manservant).

Smarting from the humiliation, Gashford seeks revenge of Haredale and engage Dennis and Hugh to destroy anything and anyone belonging to him, including Haredale. It looks Gashford is not second to Hugh in villainy.

We learn the whereabouts of Barnaby and Mrs. Rudge. They have lived for the past 5 years in a country cottage away from London earning their bread and butter through labour. Unfortunately they are discovered by the mystery man who sent a blackmailer to demand money. Mrs. Rudge gives some money and agrees to give the rest in a week's time. But the very next day, she leaves with Barnaby to London to "be lost in the vast city" where discovery would be difficult.

After facing certain mishaps, Barnaby and Mrs. Rudge arrives in London to face the worst. The day is ill chosen, for it's the day Lord Gordon's presents a petition to the Parliament against the Catholic emancipation. The Protestants Association has formed a march to the House of Commons. Barnaby and Mrs. Rudge is caught in its midst. Barnaby showing and interest and receiving a cockade was met by Lord Gordon and Gashford whom they personally direct to St. George's Fields despite Mrs. Rudge's protestations. There, Barnaby was "enroled" in Tappertit's regiment and marches with them leaving Mrs. Rudge.

The story picks up again after the change of pace in the last segment. Things are moving but towards a calamity. How did you find this section?

It was a good section, in my opinion. I particularly liked the confrontation between Mr Haredale and Chester, Gashford and Gordon. Mr Haredale is no coward and I was cheering him on as he was speaking his mind to these villains!

Still no news about Emma, Edward or Joe, but at least Barnaby and his mother are back. Of course, at the cost of meeting another unpleasant man (Staggs) 😉 Not to mention that English country gentleman! I couldn't help wondering how you expect to stay hidden and unnoticed if you are living and traveling with a speaking, entertaining pet raven.

I took notice of Dolly still being unmarried and seemingly sad about Joe. There is hope for him yet. I hope we'll hear about him and Edward in the next section. Now that the riot is about to start, they must be involved somehow. On the good side, of course.

I also enjoyed Mr. Haredale confronting the fiery group, Lindenblatt. That's a bold man!

I was also hoping to hear about Joe and Edward but was disappointed there. Maybe we'll meet them in the next section.

I feel Dolly realised a little too late that she loves Joe. And I think her sadness comes from her unexpressed feelings for him. Poor Dolly!

Once again we finish this week’s chapters on a cliffhanger, I can’t wait to continue the story next week. 😆

I fear that Barnaby is being badly influence by so many characters; from Stagg, members of the Riots and now that he is reunited with Hugh, he will only make things worse for him.

I’m really worried what will happen to Barnaby during the riots as we know there were a large amount of casualties in real life so I’m hoping nothing extreme will happen to him.

More villains!
I'm having difficulty with this book. There's no joy anywhere and too many nasty characters.
I really feel sorry for Barnaby's mother. She just can't get a break.

I have a question. At the end of chapter 48, where is Grip?

Daryl wrote: "Once again we finish this week’s chapters on a cliffhanger, I can’t wait to continue the story next week. 😆

I fear that Barnaby is being badly influence by so many characters; from Stagg, members ..."

Nothing good seems on plate for Barnaby. I'm quite worried about him. He's a simple minded trusting fellow, and Hugh and others will use him without scruple.

Rosemarie wrote: "More villains!
I'm having difficulty with this book. There's no joy anywhere and too many nasty characters.
I really feel sorry for Barnaby's mother. She just can't get a break.

I have a question..."

Tell me about it, Rosemarie! I've never met such a lot of villains in any other Dickens novel. They make the reading experience quite unpleasant. I want to read more about the good guys but what Dickens has so far given is accounts of villainy.

I also feel so sad for Mrs.Rudge. Is she never to get any peace and happiness? I hope Dickens will do her justice at the end.

About Grip, I got the impression that Barnaby took the raven with him.

Despite the fact that I've previously read Barnaby Rudge, I never gave any thought to the fact that the story contains more than the average number of Dickens villains. Now that my fellow readers have pointed that out, I must say that it makes more sense to me than it would have in other novels. First, there are several plot lines ongoing (which will eventually be resolved). There is the story of the murder; the romances of Edward Chester and Joe Willett and their estrangements from their fathers; the malevolent behavior of the mysterious stranger and Mrs. Rudge's fear of him; and the growing civil unrest that is building to the Gordon riots. Each of these plot lines brings some sort of conflict and therefore must have a villain (although the villains overlap). Also, as we can witness in our own time and all through history, there are villains at every level of civil unrest, whether the unrest be wars, riots, or more peaceful revolutions. There is the madness of the crowd, many of whom resort to violence, either through frustration or through a genuine enjoyment of destruction. The crowd generally goes on instinct, on fear or hatred of The Enemy, whoever that might be. While there may be good people in the crowd, those who believe valiantly in an ideal, their good intentions are overrun by the madness. The other set of villains are the people at the top, those like Lord George Gordon, Sir John Chester, Gashford, Hugh, and Simon Tappertit. They are determined to have their way, even at the cost of lives and destruction. They have the madness of power or of revenge guiding them. The novel is moving from its simple pastoral scenes to the darkness of anarchy very quickly now, and anarchy has many villains.

One more comment on a different subject. I'm intrigued by John Grueby. He saves Mr. Haredale when he is attacked by the boat. Also, in Chapter 35, Grueby warns Gashford of the growing size of followers and the possible dangers it presents if uncontrolled. He also seems to dislike wearing the blue cockade of Gordon's party, as if he is ashamed of it. He is an interesting character who appears to be an unheard voice of reason.

You have a point there, Nancy. Given the different storylines, it was necessary to have more villains. Only that doesn't make the reading any easier.

I like John Grueby. He is a principled, humane and bold fellow to so stand for Mr. Haredale. I agree with you. Grueby is the unheard voice of reason.

There was a lot going on in various locations in this section of our reading.

Beginning at the locksmith’s, it seems that the battles that Gabriel fights daily with his wife and Miggs might become more intense and possibly physical (at least with those people that his wife and Miggs are supporting) now that he has joined the volunteers. That Protestant Handbook is leading Mrs. Varden ever nearer towards the Valley of Sin. There is certainly a confrontation looming with Tappertit, and…. even more worrying, possibly with Barnaby. I dread to think what might happen there.

Despite Dolly having hundreds of lovers dangling from her apron strings, the one she really wants to see is still missing. Her regrets when his name was mentioned were pouring out under the table manifested in her tears. All her coquetry is superficial but not necessarily harmless. Her arms length relationships with other men might feed her vanity, but beneath that she seems to have maintained a heartfelt admiration, if not love, for Joe. However, her lack of awareness of Tappertit’s ‘amorous’ ambitions lurks ominously in the background.

I admired gutsy Mr. Haredale and his willingness to challenge the stone thrower, even if he did get the wrong man. It did expose Gashford as yet another villain. Haredale definitely needed Grueby’s protection after his brave but somewhat foolhardy retaliation amidst a mob of thugs, Hugh and Dennis included.

To use a Dickens simile ( from one of his other books) Gabriel and Haredale are like jewels surrounded by stinking mud when it comes to the good characters and the bad.

I am trying to work out how a blind man could find Mrs. Rudge whilst Haredale was baffled by her disappearance. Did the mysterious stranger have some special knowledge that might help to seek her out? Could he be a relative of hers or have some other special relationship, because they both seem to have an obscure hold over each other?

Mrs. Rudge’s escape to London only seems to have made matters worse now that Barnaby has reunited with his old ‘friend’ Hugh. The poor lad might be made to do their dirty work and have to suffer the consequences. Let us hope that Grip can protect him in some way. Mrs. Rudge’s plight is becoming more and more desperate now that Barnaby is wearing the blue cockade.


(‘Barnaby Rudge’ by Charles Green 1884)

Trev wrote: "There was a lot going on in various locations in this section of our reading.

Beginning at the locksmith’s, it seems that the battles that Gabriel fights daily with his wife and Miggs might become..."

You've raised a question that puzzled me as well, Trev. How indeed the blind man find Barnaby and Mrs. Rudge? Is he faking his blindness I wonder?

You've shared a beautiful illustration of Barnaby holding the flag, Trev. Thank you!

Trev, you’ve made some excellent points. I especially like your insight into Dolly.

Trev's comments are analytical and insightful. I've always enjoyed reading them. He's been a stadfast reader and contributor in the Victorians.

Piyangie, you’re absolutely correct that the necessity so many villains makes the reading more difficult. Despite my comments on the necessity of having all these villains, I do remember the confusion on my first reading of the novel and increased clarity on the second read (a few years later). On this third reading, I’m still discovering things, but the characters are now familiar. Since I am a devoted fan of Mr. Dickens, I find it helpful to read his novels multiple times, but I’m sure that idea would horrify many people.

Well, I have finished the section! Whew! A lot going on in this one!

Things are definitely ramping up and I confess to feeling a bit stressed. I’m super worried about Barnaby. Bless his heart , he had no idea what he’s getting involved with, and more particularly, who he is getting involved with. I’m going to have to read the next chapter since we leave him in the hands of some of the books’ most villainous.

And speaking of villainous, there are a LOT of them in this book. The villains might even outnumber the good guys, to be honest.

Bad guys: Hugh, Tappertit, hangman Dennis, Stagg, Barnaby’s father, Gashford, Miggs (7)

Good guys: Barnaby and mom, Heredale and Emma, Gabriel Vardon and Dolly (6)

Everyone else is either neutral bad/good, or out of the story at the moment.

Lots of bad guys in this book.

I am struck also by how little ‘protests’ have changed over this 250 years. As today, a very few genuine zealots surrounded by a mob of angry, violent people who care not for the cause but only for the chaos and opportunity for looting and vandalizing. Violent and enraged people who do not even understand the cause at all and could not even articulate a single sentence in defense of it!

So much like recent years and even this very day.

Human beings just never learn.

Nancy wrote: "Piyangie, you’re absolutely correct that the necessity so many villains makes the reading more difficult. Despite my comments on the necessity of having all these villains, I do remember the confus..."

Reading Dickens novels a multiple times is not easy given the length and depth. But I wouldn't be horrified, Nancy. 😀 I'm a Dickens fan, too. I've read Bleak House twice (all other Dickens just once), and I agree with you about discovering new things on your reread.

I would add Joe Willet to the good guys and equal the balance with 7 each, Beda! 😀 My heart says Joe falls into that category.

You're right about the protests. Nothing has changed over the years. While reading this section, recent protests in UK against government's policy on asylum seekers came to my mind. The attempted attacks on where they were temporarily housed and the destruction and chaos that followed show that humans somehow have a knack at repeating the past.

Well, Joe was not in this section of the story, which is why he is not included. He and Edward have been out of the story since our last section of reading. Unfortunately, since he is a good guy for certain.

Beda wrote: "Well, Joe was not in this section of the story, which is why he is not included. He and Edward have been out of the story since our last section of reading. Unfortunately, since he is a good guy fo..."

Oh, I see. I hope we'll get to hear about Joe soon.

Catching up to the group as I made quick work of this section with so much going on. Like others have said, I am wearied by the introduction of yet another villain. And sickened by the further depths of Gashford’s villainy as he seems to know no bounds when it comes to achieving his ends.

I gave some thought to how Barnaby’s increasing age puts him at greater and greater risk in the world. In his childhood years, he would naturally be most guided by his mother. As he gets older, there is both the inclination of age to look beyond one’s hearth, but also for the external world to have expectations. Barnaby looks like a man in his 20s, but his capacity for discernment is far from that. (Of which Stragg, Gashford, and Hugh take advantage)

You're absolutely correct about Barnaby, Renee. The more older he gets, less likely of him to yield to mother's wishes who wants to hide and protect him. With the increase of age, he'll want to go out to the society where he will fall prey to likes of Hugh, Stagg, and Gashford.