NYRB Classics discussion

May's book, selected by Gary, is Elizabeth Taylor's A Game of Hide and Seek!

Here is the page on Goodreads where you can read more about the book's details, including the NYRB Classics blurb.

Enjoy the book and the discussion!

On this beautiful Sunday morning I've been reading some bio material on TOET. I wanted to find a real bio, and I finally found one, literally the one.

The Other Elizabeth Taylor by Nicola Beauman. The review offers some interesting information about Ms Taylor. Interestingly she feels that our book for May, Hide and Seek, is her finest novel, mirroring her long standing affair with Ray Russell. It looks like Elizabeth and her husband had a understanding worked out about their "friends" .

This is a piece is from fro the Times Literary Supplement.:
http://web.archive.org/web/2009050717...

Here is a article from the Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo...

Here is a article from the Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/book...

Enjoy.

Okay, folks, it's time! We're following in good footsteps:



(from the back of the NYRB Classics' edition of A View from the Harbour)

I'm just about to start it.

Just last night I finished Taylor's A Wreath of Roses, the book she published right before A Game of Hide and Seek, and I cannot wait to dig into this one.

I read Mrs. Palfrey at the Claremont years ago and liked it, but somehow it's only now that I get the inkling Taylor's novels are going to be very important to me. Excited to take this further step with all of you.

Trevor wrote: "Just last night I finished Taylor's A Wreath of Roses, the book she published right before A Game of Hide and Seek, and I cannot wait to dig into this one.

I read Mrs. Palfrey at the Claremont ye..."

I recently watched the film of Angel which I really enjoyed. I've also got a library copy of Mrs. Palfrey at the Claremont which I was going to read before 'Hide and Seek', but it didn't work out. Maybe I'll read if after.

I found this a little difficult to get into at first. Partly because, for me, a guaranteed way to put me off a book is to introduce loads of characters that are brothers, sisters, aunts, cousins, second cousins twice removed etc. But I'm about 100 pages in and I'm enjoying many of the new characters such as Julia Jephcott and the women at the shop. The writing is more playful now as well.

I especially liked this quote:

Julia poured tea gracefully, but it all ran over into the saucers.

And the description of Julia which included this:

She seemed to be lovely still to herself, as if no amount of looking into mirrors could ruin her illusion.

I've got it, and have begun it. I also read Mrs. Palfrey at the Claremont awhile ago and loved it.

I stayed up much to late last night reading the first 35 pages, and I loved it. So far, it's been a fascinating, rather biting, portrait of several people, and I see why you (Jonathan) were wary. I also wonder how people who dislike strong "telling" feel about this. I think the perspective is so acute, and so subtlety layered, that it's just my kind of thing, but a few months ago when The New Yorker published a piece by Elizabeth Harrower I loved her similar style but think I was in the minority.

Anyway, so far, I'm a big fan!

For me, it's come alive from chapter two. I found chapter one ok but a bit dull. Now the book is fizzing a bit more.

I am about 40 pages in and really like it so far. I am enjoying her style of prose.

I'm into chapter 3, and the ladies of the shop are a colorful group.

Ms. Lazenby's treatment of her eyebrows is humorously stated, "She was always plucking her eyebrows when they had these conversations. She did so whenever she could spare a moment, peering into a smeared mirror, her mouth open. She had scarcely any eyebrows left, only an inflamed expanse, but that was fashionable at the time."

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I'm finding it all a bit dull at the moment. I find all the main characters as dull as dishwater but the book comes momentarily alive with some of the minor characters; such as the shop ladies, Elke, Julia Jephcott etc.

And what does Harriet actually see in Vesey?

Not being an Austen fan I'm guessing that there are parallels with Austen's novels but don't know for sure. Can anyone help with this? Am I missing much here?

I think we will have to wait until the end of the book to see if Vesey undergoes some kind of change to compare him to an Austen character.

The shop ladies are very funny and their advice to Harriet is hilarious yet terrible.

Vesey is a unlikable sort. I see big changes in store for Vesey, and not of a pleasant kind. He starts so low in my eyes, he is bound to grow.

I agree with Jonathan. The story lagged a bit till Ms Jephcott burst on the scene. The shop ladies are a welcome addition. These newer more pronounced characters are bringing Harriet's character out, and more defined.

On Austen, I am not seeing any big connections yet (though I also have not finished the book). Reading around, it seems most who compare her generally to Austen (some of her books are apparently more Austen-influenced than others) talk about Taylor's ability to probe self-deception. I don't think comparisons, then, come from structure or from character development in the plot (Austen's characters don't so much as change as become revealed after we strip away misunderstandings, and I don't see that happening much here).

Harriet loves Vesey in spite of herself, something that shocks her. So far, I think the book is fascinating in exploring this phenomenon, which, though hard to understand rationally, is certainly common. What moments of thrill do we latch on to while excusing moments of meanness?

Austen may have a likeable character revealed to be unlikeable, at which point the protagonist distances herself. Or an unlikeable character is revealed to be likeable all along, at which point they often finally get together and marry. Taylor seems to be saying to us: here is an unlikeable character, and here is our protagonist in love, aware of some unlikeable attributes yet hopeless.

At least, that's what I'm seeing about 75 pages in :-), so take that for what it's worth at this point in the game!

Well, I finished this today and I don't really know what to make of it. I mean IMO the main story is pretty much a cliché-ridden story of a woman contemplating adultery with an old flame. All the main characters are quite dull and I couldn't really be bothered too much with what happened to them, i.e. Harriet, Vesey & Charles. But what saved the book is Taylor's style and all the interesting minor characters. In fact, whenever the narrative switched to any of the minor characters my interest picked up only to fall away again when we were back with the 'adultery' story. I wonder why Taylor saddled herself with such an uninspired main narrative?

I finished it as well. I as wondering what everyone thinks of Miss Bell and Betsey's infatuation with her. I thought that storyline was bizarre.

I was actually surprised by the ending. I did think that the story was heading in the direction of a cliché, but Harriet's choice at the end surprised me.

Melissa wrote: "I was actually surprised by the ending. I did think that the story was heading in the direction of a cliché, but Harriet's choice at the end surprised me. "

I don't know, I mean at no point did Harriet and Vesey actually seem to like (let alone love) each other. Their protestations of love to each other just seemed like acting to me. So I couldn't envisage Harriet running off with Vesey as I couldn't see what she saw in him in the first place.

I found the Betsy/Bell infatuation quite entertaining.

To me it was a commentary about why we fall in love: Is it physical attraction? Nostalgia? Lack of other options? Stupidity of youth? And why do we get married: For comfort? For love? For passion?

I thought that the book could have ended where Harriet leaves Charles for Vessey and decides she has made a horrible mistake that was based on a youthful crush. I was glad, and surprised, she made the decision to stay with her family.

Melissa wrote: "I thought that the book could have ended where Harriet leaves Charles for Vessey and decides she has made a horrible mistake that was based on a youthful crush. I was..."

But wasn't it really Vesey that made the decision to end it? After all, he made up the story about moving to South Africa.

I really liked the parts concerning Betsy and her infatuation with both Miss Bell and Vesey. In some ways aren't Betsy's infatuations more normal than Harriet's icy-cool obsession with the idea of Vesey?

I haven't finished the book yet, but I'm jumping in on the Austen question. Yes, I can see some parallels.

Austen introduces male characters who present a temptation to the main female characters:

Pride and Prejudice: Elizabeth who is otherwise the sensible one of the family, is initially drawn to Wickham before she realizes what a cad he is.

Then there's Willoughby and Marianne in Sense and Sensibility.

This theme is much more developed in Emma and is at its strongest in Mansfield Park (incidentally my favourite Austen). In Mansfield Park, Austen even goes as far as to create rather, what shall I say, goody two shoe characters (Fanny and Edmund) who spring to life with the crackling sexuality of the siblings Henry and Mary Crawford.

Fanny and Edmund are drawn to the much more glamorous, worldy Crawfords.

Both Fanny and Edmund operate at a different speed from the Crawfords, and I see this same dynamic between Vesey and Harriet.

So far at least, Harriet seems rather dull and rather ordinary and Vesey seems dangerously out-of-her-league.

I've just got to the part where Charles enters Harriet's life, and while he seems as dull as dishwater too, he seems to be much more Harriet's speed.

This was the thematic comparison I made with Austen and one that woke me up at 2 in the morning.

Thanks Guy. Not being too familiar with Jane Austen I wasn't sure if there were particular parallels. In an Austen novel wouldn't the carefree male have been a bit more exciting than Vesey though?

At a later part of the book Charles is absent-mindedly reading Persuasion, a book that's he read several times. He may have been better off reading Madame Bovary.

Well there's the century factor to be taken into account and then Vesey seems so glamorous to Harriet. He is 'dangerous' for her, I think. I haven't finished the book though, so there's always that. The dangerous males in Austen are seducers, and there was that groping scene(not sure if more went on there) when Vesey and Harriet took the children out. I thought that scene was a bit vague as to what actually happened between Vesey and Harriet.

Haven't got to that part of the book w/Charles yet. Some men are attracted to kamikaze women and some women are attracted to bounders. I've yet to see if Vesey is a bounder...

My main problem with the book was that I couldn't see what Harriet saw in Vesey and vice versa. Harriet is quite dull and Vesey just a bit of a waster really. Usually I can see why a character may fall for another, but not here.

Again I'm not done, but I think she finds him exciting. I think of that scene when he takes the children off and buys them meat--a very shabby thing to do btw, and Caroline clearly can't wait to get rid of him when she cuts his visit short. Basically he's seen as dangerous in their little circle.

I've been hit and miss w/Taylor BTW and have yet to decide on this one.

Guy wrote: "I've been hit and miss w/Taylor BTW and have yet to decide on this one. ..."

I've only read this one so far but I have a library copy of Mrs Palfrey at the Claremont which seems to get favourable reviews - I may read it soon. I like her style, especially when she comes out with these short snappy phrases such as: 'the rain hit the windows like rice', 'she made a fence of little phrases', 'She needed no more encouragement than silence' etc...

I feel that she could have written some great comic novels...maybe she did. I'll certainly read some more by her.

I also think that Harriet is drawn to Vesey for lack of other options. She is pretty isolated and young, who else is there around for her to swoon over like she does with Vesey? And when she is older her feelings continue for him, not because he is a "good" character but from a sense of nostalgia for her youth.

Melissa wrote: "I also think that Harriet is drawn to Vesey for lack of other options. She is pretty isolated and young, who else is there around for her to swoon over like she does with Vesey? And when she is o..."

I think you're right Melissa. But it is a bit odd that Vesey still pines for Harriet after fifteen years. It's a bit vague in the novel but I believe that they only met once in the period inbetween so I suppose it is largely nostalgia. After all, they're both at difficult periods in their lives.

I don't usually spend much time worrying about characters' motives or choices in love as I know in real life other people's choices are usually unfathomable. :-)

Jonathan: I think you're right about the humour. The scenes with the shop ladies (the plucked eyebrows) reminded me of the sort of humour you might see w/Muriel Spark.

Mrs P at the Claremont was excellent, IMO

I really like the way Taylor divides the story, picking it up "almost twenty years later." We left Harriet on the brink of her life with Charles in the wings waiting to 'take care of her.' I suppose to Harriet the alternative--a life at the shop with all those spinsters and their peculiar beauty treatments (and the one woman w/the disappearing eyebrows)--wasn't appealing.

It is significant that Charles is reading Austen's Persuasion as it is a novel about regret. Teenaged Anne Elliott fell in love Capt Wentworth but was persuaded, by her father, to break the engagement. Then Wentworth returns years later with all the trappings of a suitable suitor while Anne is now considered an old maid. Wentworth's return causes Anne to mull over her choices and regret them.

There are some huge differences between the two plots so it's not as though Taylor mirrored Austen, but there are connections.

Guy wrote: "I really like the way Taylor divides the story, picking it up "almost twenty years later." We left Harriet on the brink of her life with Charles in the wings waiting to 'take care of her.' I suppos..."

Thanks for the Austen comparisons Guy.

I'm reading 'Mrs Palfrey' at the moment and I'm loving it - it was the one that most appealed to me when I was first reading up about Taylor.

I still like 'Hide and Seek', I liked a lot of things about it such as Taylor's style, the construction of the novel, the humour, the minor characters etc. But I found the main story and the main characters rather dull and hackneyed. I keep wondering if this was a deliberate choice by Taylor, whether their story was supposed to appear rather dull compared to the others? But then, maybe I'm just being harsh towards the characters...

It's a problem when the secondary characters are more interesting than the main players.

I just finished and I have one question. What did Harriet see in Vesey?

Cynthia wrote: "I just finished and I have one question. What did Harriet see in Vesey?"

And what did Vesey see in Harriet? And why did they still pine for each other after so many years? It would have been more believable if their relationship had been a bit more explosive when they were younger.

I think it's regret. Vesey had a promising future at one point, but something went wrong and now he's a two bit actor. Harriet's life with Charles is materially good, but there's a lot lacking there too. For both of them, I think they each represent the moment when things went 'wrong.' They were both at that fork in the road. Shortly after Vesey was sent away, he went off to oxford and Harriet met Charles.

IMO, there's been no closure--a terribly overused phrase but when it comes to personal relationships, when there's no closure, there's unresolved business. We know that Harriet thought of Vesey often. Perhaps he just enjoyed the worship.

Just finished it. Seem to have had rather a different reaction to it than the rest of you. I never thought, "What does Harriet see in Vesey?"--to me she seemed to be the only one who could see through all of Vesey's protective dissemblings. They felt a physical and spiritual intimacy that they were too young to articulate and the adults got it wrong on in trying to separate them. It isn't really an infatuation, since they have known each other since childhood, and know each other on a level that isn't just romantic or sexual. I liked the way that Taylor doesn't try to make him likeable to us but concentrates only their feelings for each other, which we can't really judge. Most of Vesey's best moments toward Harriet come not in words but in gesture, as when he alone is deft enough to bind up her bleeding hand. Or there is the moment when he persuades her to tango, and they can continue their private relationship in the midst of the crowd.

I can see being somewhat frustrated with Harriet as a nonentity, but as Vesey hides himself behind his irritating behavior, she keeps a low profile so as not to reveal her inner life. It's a pretty rareified relationship, but I think Taylor played it about right in not giving them a happy ending, though a not a terribly tragic one either. At least, I assume Vesey will survive what ails him.

They really did seem to have 'something.' A sad ending, I thought. No second chances.

Yes, but life seldom gives them.

There was that part, right at the end, when they're in some shabby hotel room and Harriet wonders about her middle aged body and undressing in the dark. Quite poignant

A curiosity question here but one that has emerged on more than one occasion.
Do you have more difficulty understanding what Vesey sees in Harriet? Or do you have more difficulty seeing what Harriet sees in Vesey?
Or neither?

Maybe they were perfect for each other. Do you think they would have been happy had they married? I never thought that Harriet was going to be happy with Charles. And with Julia for a mother-in-law!

She is clearly bored by Charles and there was a considerable age difference. He seemed very comfortable taking on a paternal role. Remember that part where he told Harriet to go see Vesey in Hamlet? Was he trying to belittle Vesey in Harriet's eyes? I thought the evening post-play was very painful.

The thing with 'the road not taken' is that it's very easy to imagine that things would be different/better if only we'd made other choices, but just one choice would have created an entirely different reality.

I wonder how happy Harriet would have been if she'd married Vesey. Hard to imagine her being happy trouping around drab little towns as he moved from theatre to theatre, but then again, perhaps if he had married Harriet and had a family, he would have taken a job with his father and resented the hell out of Harriet for it.

I thought Julia was a great character. Horrible m in law though

I don't know that we necessarily have to assume that the Vesey/Harriet romance would have had to end in marriage or be permanent. It's that just at the point that it was about to come into it's full potentiality, it was cut off by the good intentioned but wrongheaded desire to separate them. So they don't get to become who the other perceives them to be. Again, I think the tango scene later is important, because Harriet doesn't know she knows how to tango until Vesey leads her to the dance floor.

Maybe she would have ended up marrying Charles, or someone like him anyway. But she would have come into that marriage better armed.

My question is, what are we to make of Betsy? She is supposed to be in some sense a later version of Harriet, I think, but her passions aren't given the serious treatment by Taylor that she gives her mother. I did like the scene where even as she is getting Miss Bell to help her believe that Vesey is her father, she betrays the truth by making a gesture made by Charles's mother. Although of course Miss Bell doesn't know.

I loved that part (the histrionic gesture). It was merciless really.

Yes--the book is a nice mix of the romantic, if that's what you want to call it, and the sardonic.

I liked the sardonic bits best: the ladies at the shop, Harriet's m in law.

What's up for June BTW?

What did others make of the ending? I mean Vesey ended the affair by saying that he's moving to S. Africa but that's revealed to be a lie. Is Vesey just bored of the whole thing? Or is he expecting Harriet to seek him out in a final game of hide and seek?

No, I think he was sparing her. At their last meeting, he also spared her, seeing that any kind of final consummation would be terrible for her, and so he made up the plausible lie about South Africa, which probably also fulfilled some wish he had about his father.