Virago Modern Classics discussion

Who wants to read The Doves of Venus by Olivia Manning? This is our buddy-read in January 2025.

If you have read it already, or you are reading it at another (later) time - write here what you think about the book too.

[Please keep in mind to hide spoilers in spoiler brackets.]

I am going to read the novel. It's high time I read something by the author. I hope it will be just the beginning with Manning for me.

Oh yes - I have a copy. I read it before - a long time ago, so I am interested to revisit.

I've started it, so far so good.

For this reader however nothing to date has surpassed:

The Balkan Trilogy

The Levant Trilogy

Just started and am enjoying it. The freshness and hope of Ellie is sweet, perfect for a dreary January. The Doves of Venus does not have the grandeur of Manning's trilogies, but her writing makes the reading easy.

Just finished chp 2 - I'd say that is very powerful writing. Quintin's sense of superiority to the homeless Petta and then he uses Ellie - the appointment to get away from his flat - top line of chp 3 - Ellie was expecting nothing further from him. Manning's exposé of the base selfishness of most people is stunning - and certainly matches her talents in The Balkan and Levant trilogies.

I am starting it today.

I'm starting chp 7. I think it's really good - there is a strong sense of very personal - as in autobiographical. I think 19 year old Ellie represents a genuine naivety. I saw in a review by Cphe - she thinks Ellie is unusual - but we're not in 2025. Originally published - 1955 - 70 years ago.

I have finished it. I have given the book 4*, but may increase it on reflection. I enjoyed the story, but what elevates the book for me is Manning's descriptions. Manning is so skilled at creating pictures for me, without laborious descriptions. She brings her characters and the scenes to life. I can easily imagine walking through Regent's Park with Quintin or in the smokey pub with Dennis.

I found Petta's loneliness very poignant - in the beginning she is depicted as a petty, frivolous, spoilt woman - by Quintin - and the narrative does nothing to dissuade us of this unpleasant depiction - and then we are allowed into het thoughts and feelings - she observes Alma and then Quintin's manipulations of both her and Claypole - and she leaves - bored with them. That description of Petta wandering aimlessly around the hard, glittering, rain-washed London - is very moving. For me anyway. And then we return to Ellie's story - her poverty, and illness but her determination to keep working. And I thought the portrayal of Dahlia - the working friendship and then Dahlia's resentment when E moves "up" to the studio - all of that is so real - so true a depiction of people - masterful writing.

Sonia wrote: "...what elevates the book for me is Manning's descriptions. Manning is so skilled at creating pictures for me, without laborious descriptions. She brings her characters and the scenes to life..."

Exactly.

Laura wrote: "...all of that is so real - so true a depiction of people - masterful writing"

I agree.

Somehow I thought this was the first book of the Balkan Trilogy. So I was a little disappointed! I have been curious about Manning since I read about her badmouthing Elizabeth Taylor… I am on Ch. 5 now and not enthralled, but do agree about her skillful description. I also find Quintin more sympathetic than I would have expected.

How is it possible to find Quintin "sympathetic" ? He's a misogynistic womaniser.

And Tom Claypole - what is his role in the novel. A counterpart to Quintin - a business man as opposed to Quintin's dilettante status? I love the descriptions of Maxine - unctuously manipulative.

It seems to me the book is making a lot of statements about money - who has earned it or inherited it or must work for it - the mean wages paid to Nancy and Ellie - Mrs Primrose's idea that her employees must have some money behind them. There are a lot of comments on old versus new money. Early 1950s post WWII - decline of the upper-classes - the emphasis on stocks and knowledge of investments in the stock markets. Maxine - wealthy S. African family - but in debt - overdraft. Nancy's bank manager father - upper-middle class?
Alma - extremely wealthy - Quintin has designs on her money etc. etc.

I think Tom Claypole has two main roles in the book. He is seen by the women as a sugar daddy, and a hoped for financial provider after death. But he is very chauvinist, he is happy to indulge the women (in return for them being light hearted and amusing him) but sees them as inferior. He does not think that women need to earn a decent wage (it is before equal pay). He also believes in property being passed down the male side of the family.
His values are almost Victorian.

I saw the characters as a way of showing where women were in the 50s., where men and women saw them. The question (I think without the answer) was whether were they like in the poem "The Doves of Venus" by George Essex Evans (here you can read the poem: https://allpoetry.com/The-Doves-Of-Venus).

Thank you for sharing the poem.

Flagging a bit over the second trip to Clopals - part 2 chp 11. Then Nancy being called home - sick mother. That felt heavy handed - in terms of 'the female lot' - and then a really tedious section - chp 13 - shown about the city by Denis - mad driving. Up in the clouds framing of cinematographic scenes - but I do get the Hitchcock type feel to the descriptions - feet echoing under bridges etc - the person unseen. Ellie reveals her ignorance/innocence by asking if it will be in colour - we know of course that Hitchcock type mysteries - always in noir - black and white/grey tones.

That awful scene a bit earlier where Ellie bumps into Quinton - what a total CAD - comments about no idea where to find her - a loaf of romantic LIES - I was looking for you etc. It highlights the pathos of Ellie's suffering because her thoughts and feelings are truthful - she was - and always hoping to come across Quintin. But I also understand Cphe's comments - hard for any modern reader to understand or empathise with Ellie's continued suffering over Q. We find it hard to understand that she can't see through him - but I suppose that is the nature of true love.

Tom Claypole's role - allows us to see Ellie actually contemplating a mercenary attachment to a man - she even temporarily feels jealous of Maxine - But we see Ellie naturally rejecting this option of being dependent on a man - she deliberately walks away from Tom - choosing a place he cannot follow. In those moments we see Ellie's strength and determination - she pulls herself out of her despondency and indeed the overwhelming despair of deep insecurity - both financial and emotional - the callous indifference of Mrs P to her work. Denis leaving, Nancy leaving. But Ellie says to herself - "am I not also a person?". She has some inner resilience - a belief in herself. I think it's one of the real strengths of this book.

Although I was very weary of that - reuniting with Denis. They're all in the pub now.

And yes Sarah - Tom - very Victorian values. I made similar comment about some of the male characters in Elizabeth Taylor's novels - also dating from 1950s. Patriarchy kept alive by those that benefit from its institutions - inheritance to male only - very misogynistic.

Saw a quote from Ivy Compton-Burnett about a novel by Olivia Manning (didn't mention which one). 'It is really full of very good descriptions', she once observed in a conversation with Elizabeth Taylor. 'Quite excellent descriptions. I don't know if you care for descriptions? I don't.'

Yes - I think decidedly heavy-handed with the descriptions. Some of them work, but the tour of London with Denis - was excruciating.

Picked up from the Pub Scene, p. 185 - Is that Arnold Wesker? British playwright - came to prominence in the late 50s early 60s.

Manning can't mean the great Arnold Bennett - because he died 1931.

Petta enters the pub - all the writing with her is fantastic - and an extraordinary capture of a childhood wound. The way in which the insult and hurt initially bounces off the child - but as Manning says "she knew their laughter had struck against the blank wall of her innocence and had left something dark there."

To me that is truly awesome writing - it's that moment when a writer captures something in words you know you've felt or experienced but not actually pinned down - or thought out. There is Manning capturing those insights - fixing them with a truth we recognise.

I spoke too soon re: Quintin.

The tension between Manning and Elizabeth Taylor has been in my mind while reading this. I wish Google Books had more than a snippet view of The Other Elizabeth Taylor so I could pull the quotes. I think Manning was critical both of her writing and her lifestyle. This is the only book of hers I’ve read, but based on this sample I would say Taylor is the superior writer.

Hi Sarah - Yes - I agree. Taylor is the superior writer. What's the expression - sour grapes?

I think this topic of Ellie's lack of success in the cruel city is an unwelcome topic in today's terms. We all like to think that jobs and careers offer opportunities for women - but my experiences in backwards Cyprus match exactly what happened to Ellie. No wonder I totally identified with her when I read this about 15 years ago. I was dismissed from teaching jobs in exactly the same way. "Oh we don't need you anymore.". After waiting and hoping for the term to start - on phoning to discover I was dismissed. I remember working all Christmas Eve - desperately trying to mark 100s of student papers for an impossible deadline - a deadline imposed by the head of finance exacting revenge because I had wanted to improve the teaching program -my little son in the front room watching TV alone for hours and hours. Him coming to ask me for my presence - and all I could do was send him back to the TV and furiously, desperately mark exams and papers - for what - so they could dismiss me out of hand next time - I expected to register for work. Ellie's story is relentlessly cruel and unbearable in how true to life it is.

Oops, forgot a word in my previous comment. The superior writer, yes. I’m still interested in reading more of Manning’s work. I’ve heard such good things about the Balkan Trilogy.

Laura, I agree about the book’s realism. I appreciated the lack of warm fuzzies amidst the studio… her relationships with her coworkers also seemed very realistic. Even Nancy wasn’t quite the kindred spirit she promised to be at first. At least, there were limitations to how much they felt they could confide in each other.

Sarah wrote: "Oops, forgot a word in my previous comment. The superior writer, yes. I’m still interested in reading more of Manning’s work. I’ve heard such good things about the Balkan Trilogy.

Laura, I agree a..."

And Tom's cruelty - the way he encourages her to think he likes her and can offer protection - he says, "I can get you any job you want. . . " and then that excruciating scene when she can't stop crying and Tom's only response is - disgust. Not simply with her crying - but the fact she has SLEPT with a man - and yet what has Tom done but preyed on young women. The whole revolting double standards. And the scene where Ellie goes down to Clopals with Nancy's money - and is thrown out in seconds. The long walk back to the station - and even in London - the long walk from St. Pancras. All of that is so real - that there is literally no-one who will help.

And Manning - contrasts Petta's "fake" suicides with the possibility that Ellie really has hit bottom - and never once thinks to take her life.

There is so much - realism - as you say Sarah. Looking forward to your review.

I’m afraid Tom is going to be a very memorable character for me! I do think the title was perfectly chosen; I liked that Manning had him recite those verses and was surprised not to find it contrived. The fate of these doves. Discarded once their purity is “spoiled.”

A bit of a dichotomy in the title I thought.

Doves and purity opposed to Venus and all its connotations.

I can just add, that I completely agree with you, Laura and Sonia, about the reality of the story.

I’m sorry, I know this must be posted somewhere but I’m having trouble navigating this app on my phone - what is the pick for next month?

Sarah wrote: "I’m sorry, I know this must be posted somewhere but I’m having trouble navigating this app on my phone - what is the pick for next month?"

The group read is In Diamond Square and the buddy read Precious Bane