The Catholic Book Club discussion

3. AGI = Artificial General Intelligence. It refers to the construction of artificial machines emulating all of human intelligence.

Do you think AGI is possible?
If not, why not?
If yes, do you think it will be attained soon? By when do you expect it?

CBC wrote: "3. AGI = Artificial General Intelligence. It refers to the construction of artificial machines emulating all of human intelligence.

Do you think AGI is possible?
If not, why not?
If yes, do you ..."
I believe that the best person to answer this question is you, Professor Manuel Alfonseca, or one of your friends (. More than a spiritual threat, the great fear I have is that humanity will be unable to do anything without technology and abandon manual labor. Sagas such as the Berserker saga, Terminator, or The Matrix, or novels such as those of my friend Jorge Sáez Criado, let's hope they do not come true. The great fear, perhaps the successor to wokism, is transhumanism.

CBC wrote: "3. AGI = Artificial General Intelligence. It refers to the construction of artificial machines emulating all of human intelligence.

Do you think AGI is possible?
If not, why not?
If yes, do you ..."
On this subject I recommend Hilaire Belloc's The Servile State Hilaire Belloc

As a consequence of the publication of ChatGPT and other Large Language Models, there has been a lot of nonsense in the media saying that self-conscientious AGI is almost here. In a post in my blog, I debunked this idea by showing that a program doing almost the same as ChatGPT could be built with just 18 instructions.

This is the post: https://populscience.blogspot.com/202...

Real AI experts do not believe this. In a poll between several hundred experts about when could we expect an artificial general intelligence, the average was 200 years! And there were a few who thought it would never be achieved.

Young people working on AI, on the other hand, are much more optimistic. My own interpretation of this is that they are young and have let themselves be befuddled by the media. But when older experts like me try to discuss the question, they take it as a personal insult!

However, as my novels, Andrew's and many other prove, this is an interesting subject for science fiction novels.

I agree with everything the professor said above!

Manuel wrote: "As a consequence of the publication of ChatGPT and other Large Language Models, there has been a lot of nonsense in the media saying that self-conscientious AGI is almost here. In a post in my blog..."

I also agree very much with the Professor. People are very fascinated because he has managed to reproduce the animations of Japanese drawings from the Ghibli studio, but I notice that it is too perfect, unreal and, artificial (I say this for virtual women) I prefer them with more imperfections, but that they are real

I didn't say it, but I think I should have said it. Professor Manuel Alfonseca knows that there is a book that influenced me a lot called "I mostri della Razioni" by Rino Cammilleri where he dismantles all the utopias that have existed. The last chapter is enormously worrying. Because both he and the other great Italian Catholic writer Massimo Introvignethink that the last utopia will have a satanic undertone, and he collected a report from the American police revealing that there were more and more crimes with a satanic undertone. This is quite possibly the last threat the world has to address. This or a Gnostic dystopia that divinizes the human being, perhaps that is the great danger we encounter.

Fonch wrote: "People are very fascinated because he has managed to reproduce the animations of Japanese drawings from the Ghibli studio"

Fonch, people could interpret that I have done what you say. When you say "he" you should have said ChatGPT, or "it."

Or perhaps you think that ChatGPT is a human male :-)

I think it's fair to believe in the possibility of AGI — if you operate in a materialistic cosmovision, where brains equal intelligence and there's no essential difference between things. In a sense, the crowning of materialism seems to be recreating nature in a seemingly superior way, which is the aim of transhumanism. It would be a sort of divinization, the only way mankind can reach transcendence by their own hands.

On the other side, as Catholics, we do believe in spirituality and the unseen, and Catholic philosophers have always thought that there is spiritual knowledge aside from sensible knowledge. I still side with Aristotle and the Scholastics on the doctrine of every knowledge, sensible too, being an act of the soul, even in animals; and, in this sense, machines will never be capable of proper knowledge, for they are soulless. They may imitate our internal processes and store billions of data, but, for them, it will always be as words without meaning; machines will never have proper individuality or freedom. They will always be puppets, for people or even the demonic, and, I think, it makes them even scarier.

There's an interesting discussion about this in AMC's show "Pantheon", not with AIs, but transferred intelligence from people's brains. But that series isn't virtuous at all.

Emmanuel wrote: "I think it's fair to believe in the possibility of AGI — if you operate in a materialistic cosmovision, where brains equal intelligence and there's no essential difference between things. In a sens..."

There is another way in which AGI could be possible and compatible with Catholic doctrine. Assume the universe is made of two components, material and spiritual, not just one (matter) as the materialists say. Assume the spiritual component is everywhere, but it's imperceptible, except when it can embody itself in a sufficiently complex material entity (typically a brain). This would happen in higher animals, and especially in human beings. This would be compatible with Aristotle's theory of souls, and also with the Catholic dictum that God breathes a soul in a human being since the moment of conception.

Now assume that, in the future, we came to build an artificial entity as complex as the human brain (we are much further from this than what materialists think). Wouldn't the spiritual component get into them, the same as it gets into us? In other words, wouldn't God breath a soul in a robot, if it was as complex as we are?

What I have said above is the same as my quote of my novel Operation Quatuor, in a comment in another thread of this discussion.

But, of course, at this point in time, all this is science fiction.

Manuel wrote: "Emmanuel wrote: "I think it's fair to believe in the possibility of AGI — if you operate in a materialistic cosmovision, where brains equal intelligence and there's no essential difference between ..."

It may be possible, and, from what I understand, it's actually what happened to Thierry in "Our Lady of the Artilects". But if these new beings are to be considered human, animal or a new species, this is an entirely new topic that is utterly beyond me.

Emmanuel wrote: "Manuel wrote: "Emmanuel wrote: "I think it's fair to believe in the possibility of AGI — if you operate in a materialistic cosmovision, where brains equal intelligence and there's no essential diff..."

Yes, Emmanuel---this is a correct read of what happened in the book.

Critically, however, it wasn't that "we built machines so complex that God had no choice but to ensoul them" (though that is what the demon says). The reason God ensouled them was to aid humanity.

Andrew wrote: "Critically, however, it wasn't that "we built machines so complex that God had no choice but to ensoul them" (though that is what the demon says). The reason God ensouled them was to aid humanity."

I didn't say that God had no choice, but that God could have built the world in such a way that whenever there is a structure (the human brain or whatever) capable of having a soul, that soul is given.

Andrew wrote: "Emmanuel wrote: "Manuel wrote: "Emmanuel wrote: "I think it's fair to believe in the possibility of AGI — if you operate in a materialistic cosmovision, where brains equal intelligence and there's ..."

This explains a lot. My understanding was that they constituted a new species, and naturally, God would give each one a soul. I may reread both novels someday and see how this changes our perspective of the story.

Manuel wrote: "Young people working on AI, on the other hand, are much more optimistic. My own interpretation of this is that they are young and have let themselves be befuddled by the media. But when older experts like me try to discuss the question, they take it as a personal insult!"

It may be that they are already "true believers" when they decide to go into the field. This would explain why they take offense when you raise difficulties.

Manuel wrote: "I didn't say that God had no choice, but that God could have built the world in such a way that whenever there is a structure (the human brain or whatever) capable of having a soul, that soul is given."

I think it would be the same thing, but I would say that when God brought the material into existence and created time, God, transcending time and space, already knew what we would do and had already decided whether he would ensoul artilects and why.

John wrote: "I think it would be the same thing, but I would say that when God brought the material into existence and created time, God, transcending time and space, already knew what we would do and had already decided whether he would ensoul artilects and why."

Speaking about God and time is tricky, for we are unable to imagine anything outside time. The words "already knew what we would do and had already decided" in your comment are an example. They cannot be applied to God ;-)

Manuel wrote: "John wrote: "I think it would be the same thing, but I would say that when God brought the material into existence and created time, God, transcending time and space, already knew what we would do ..."G. W. Leibniz's Monadology: An Edition for Students

He has certainly finished reading Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz's , and I agree with the Professor. The human being having a metaphysical imperfection is limited and there are concepts that due to their limitation will escape him, but this has been done for our own good. I agree that God has created the best of all possible worlds and that by giving ourselves freedom we can choose what is not good and, unfortunately, this causes him harm.
As for the IGs, this is a work of fiction, the author, having the power of subcreation, may be sharing his worldview. Sometimes certain licenses are made in order to make a good story. Depending on the talent and also on the knowledge, it may or may not contain errors. But if it is a conscious change, you must be more benign and play the game that the author proposes

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "People are very fascinated because he has managed to reproduce the animations of Japanese drawings from the Ghibli studio"

Fonch, people could interpret that I have done what you say..."

That was a failure of the translation of the Microsoft Word translator for which I sincerely apologize. I write my answers in Spanish and they are translated for me by Microsoft Word so that my answers are more understandable and there are no problems of understanding of the users who read, or participate in the discussion of "Our Lady of the Artilects". Of course, the best way to Artificial Intelligence I think it would be It.

CBC wrote: "3. AGI = Artificial General Intelligence. It refers to the construction of artificial machines emulating all of human intelligence.

Do you think AGI is possible?
If not, why not?
If yes, do you ..."

I guess, we are on progress. Since the same productive environment is interested in the internet of Things... and that only topic has caused and importante impact in the substitution of handwork, and enterteining devices. Now that I think about it I remember a Robin Williams' movie.. Bicentennial man, a very basic robot and through the pass of time it evolves until it has feelings.

That is scary... isnt it?Hopefully we are very far away from that...

Tania wrote: "CBC wrote: "3. AGI = Artificial General Intelligence. It refers to the construction of artificial machines emulating all of human intelligence.

Do you think AGI is possible?
If not, why not?
If ..."
Wasn't that film inspired by a story by Isaac Asimov? The Professor will correct me. A friend I fought with recommended that film, but I haven't been able to see it yet.

There is a very interesting play that I recommend written by Gustave Thibon called "You Will Be Like Gods/ Seréis Como Dioses" which we talk about in the video "Three friends talk about science fiction". Juan Manuel de Prada recommended it to me

Fonch wrote: "Wasn't that film inspired by a story by Isaac Asimov? The Professor will correct me. A friend I fought with recommended that film, but I haven't been able to see it yet."

Yes, you are right. "The bicentennial man" was a short story written by Asimov and published in 1976 to celebrate the bicentennial of the USA. The film (which I haven't watched) is based on the story.

Fonch wrote: "Tania wrote: "CBC wrote: "3. AGI = Artificial General Intelligence. It refers to the construction of artificial machines emulating all of human intelligence.

Do you think AGI is possible?
If not,..."
It's not that bad to be a movie based on a book.
You should see it or read the book.

Putting some thought on it, I don't think I disliked the movie when I saw it. It was pretty well done, and since to me was fiction, I didn't put much thought on it.

Now, we are being presented with robots for real doing handwork and replacing human in work environments. Things we wouldn't think possible. Now i wonder... how far away are we from the depiction of the book?

Tania wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Tania wrote: "CBC wrote: "3. AGI = Artificial General Intelligence. It refers to the construction of artificial machines emulating all of human intelligence.

Do you think AGI is poss..."

They did not recommend it to me. On this subject, as on many others, I tend to be very pessimistic. Of course I don't expect a robotic apocalypse in the style of the Terminator, The Matrix or Fred Saberhagen's Berserker saga https://www.goodreads.com/series/4050... , but I don't think it's good to abandon manual jobs and depend so much on technology. We have already seen in that blackout that affected our country (due to the government's terrible management) that sometimes it fails.

Manuel wrote: "Speaking about God and time is tricky, for we are unable to imagine anything outside time. The words "already knew what we would do and had already decided" in your comment are an example. They cannot be applied to God ;-)"

Fair point. Yes, we lack not just the words, but the concepts for thinking about being outside time and space. Even the word transcendence, because it conveys a beyondness, a before and after time, which as you note import concepts of time, just as it implies an outside space, which also imports the concept of space.