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The Mayor of Casterbridge > The Mayor of Casterbridge: 4th thread: Chapters 28 - 36

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message 1: by Bridget, Moderator (last edited Aug 10, 2025 08:24PM) (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
THE MAYOR OF CASTERBRIDGE: The Life and Death of a Man of Character

4th Thread: Chapters 28 - 36




Polly Walker as Lucetta in a red dress 2003

Here are LINKS TO EACH CHAPTER SUMMARY, and interpolated poem, for ease of location:

Chapter 28

Chapter 29

Chapter 30

Chapter 31

Chapter 32

Chapter 33

Chapter 34

Chapter 35

Chapter 36


message 2: by Bridget, Moderator (last edited Jul 30, 2025 12:02AM) (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
CHAPTER 28

Summary


The next day, Henchard goes to the Town Hall to fill in for Dr. Chalkfield, the mayor for that year. The woman on trial is elderly and poorly dressed. Constable Stubberd implies that he caught her in the act of drunken disorderliness right by the church. Stubberd is sworn in and gives his testimony, during which the old woman objects twice, and the bench must consult. The old woman has been in court more times than the magistrates, so they must be careful about how they proceed.

Finally impatient with these proceedings, Henchard interrupts and asks the old woman if she has anything to say. She says yes and refers to a time twenty-years earlier when she was selling furmity at the Weydon Fair. The clerk says that cannot be relevant to the case, but Henchard is startled and forgets to worry about the case at hand. The woman tells the story of a man who sold his wife and child and points out Henchard as that very man.

The other members of the court protest, but the furmity-woman says the story shows that Henchard is no better than she and therefore unfit to pass judgment on her. Henchard confirms the truth of the story, and leaves the court, saying he must avoid any temptation to seek revenge on this woman by way of punishment.

Lucetta sees a large crowd around the Town Hall that day and asks her servant what everyone is so curious about. The servant says that an old woman in court has revealed that Henchard once sold his wife and child for five guineas. Lucetta is greatly disturbed to hear the true character of the man who she is being coerced into marrying.

Lucetta tells Elizabeth-Jane that she plans to go to Port-Breedy, to the seaside, for a few days. Elizabeth-Jane, perceiving her unhappiness, encourages this plan. While Lucetta is away, Henchard calls at the house only to learn of her absence. He calls the next day but learns that Lucetta is out walking on the road toward Port-Breedy.


message 3: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
A Little More . . .

It is clear from the old furmity woman’s trial that she is both intelligent and difficult to handle. She is also shown to be a repeat criminal through her knowledge of court proceedings. She has certainly had many setbacks since the first chapter of this story. She challenges the proceedings in any way she can, and the men who are passing judgment on her do not intimidate her.

Then she tells the shocking story of the man who sold his wife and child before pointing out Henchard as the subject of the story. A great rhetorical technique that draws the people of the court onto her side with dramatic effect, both in the court room and for us as readers.

Surprisingly Henchard immediately admits the truth of the story, instead of attempting to discredit the woman. Henchard is, despite his flaws, honest about his past in this moment. And also honest about his normal gut reaction to seek revenge.

Lucetta hears the story about Henchard by word of mouth. She feels the story reveals Henchard’s true character to her. However, his crime of selling his wife and child is barely worse than the way he has already treated Lucetta. Arguably, it is also similar in spirit if not in degree to the way she used Elizabeth-Jane.

A trip to the seaside was often completed for one’s health, or as a vacation, during this time period therefore Elizabeth-Jane is not surprised to hear that Lucetta would want to take such a trip. There is no reason for Elizabeth to be suspicious of Lucetta's motives for the trip. Surely the secret that Lucetta just learned, and that the townspeople learned, will impact Elizabeth's life as well. Even though, we the readers know, Henchard is not Elizabeth's true father.


message 4: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Illumination of a few references . . .

1) an even greater incongruity than Shallow and Silence -
for those who are wondering, Shadow and Silence are two corrupt bumbling justices in Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 2. Falstaff had known Shallow in their disreputable youth and addresses his elegiac comment "We have heard the chimes at midnight" to him. (III.ii).

2) the country of the Psalmist where the clouds drop fatness:
Is from Psalm 65:11 - 'Thou crownest the year with thy goodness; and thy paths drop fatness'. Referring to God's munificence, 'fatness' means natural richness here, though Hardy plays on its more mundane meaning of 'greasiness'.

3) The steeped aspect of the woman as a whole showed her to be no native of the country-side or even of a country-town

The word 'steeped' is a bit tricky in this sentence. Given the context it suggests a loftiness indicative of urban rather than rural origins.


message 5: by Claudia (last edited Jul 30, 2025 04:51AM) (new)

Claudia | 148 comments I hope you have posted everything you meant to, Bridget!

What an eventful chapter! I too was struck by Henchard's honesty when he acknowledged that he was that man who sold his wife and daughter.

"The sensation in the court was indescribably great. Henchard left the chair, and came out, passing through a group of people on the steps and outside that was much larger than usual"

Even if the circumstances are completely different, the way Henchard is going out of the Town Hall reminded of that formidable chapter in Les Misérables (view spoiler)

Another coincidence is helping the plot to move on and a secret to be revealed : the woman on trial happened to be the furmity woman, a reliable witness of what happened twenty years ago. We are meeting her for the third time!

Twenty years ago, she was really prosperous.

Two years ago she was obviously experiencing difficult times in her business and her appearance spoke of decline, if not decay. Even her furmity was uneatable or undrinkable. Elizabeth-Jane thought it inappropriate to even talk to her and kept a distance when Susan asked her about if she remembered Henchard.

Now she definitely belongs to the wretches of society: most probably alcoholic and socially unmanageable, she appears before a local court of justice for outrageous behaviour.

Is the furmity woman not a mise en abyme of something to happen?


message 6: by Connie (last edited Jul 30, 2025 04:43AM) (new)

Connie  G (connie_g) | 705 comments Bridget, I love the photo that you posted of Lucetta in her red dress at the beginning of this thread. She really stands out against all the gray and black clothing worn by the other actors.


message 7: by Peter (last edited Jul 30, 2025 01:53PM) (new)

Peter | 140 comments What an interesting plot development this chapter offers us. I am pulled in multiple directions. First, the fermity woman appears once again. She is the crone, the keeper of Henchard’s greatest secret. With her revelation of her shared past with Henchard his persona is completely exposed. Just as she has fallen into poverty and disrepute so we see Henchard following her lead. He is presiding upon her trial, but when his past is revealed he steps down, and steps away from any position of respect and honour in Casterbridge and now enters into a new position which, arguably, parallels the present position of the fermity woman. They have both fallen from their previous social positions.

Hardy does not make this shift easy for the reader to accept. Henchard admits to to his past. He confesses to his actions in the symbolically important location of a courthouse. As readers, can we exonerate him for his past? Can we now pass judgement on him or has Hardy left the reader in confusion? One question that is posed in this chapter is can a confession of one’s sins be enough?


message 8: by Cindy (new)

Cindy Newton | 22 comments We were on an extended trip when the group read began, so I have been working diligently to get caught up. I have enjoyed all of the comments and illustrations–both have added a great deal to the meaning of the text.

I suspected that the old woman mentioned previously would be the furmity woman, but I was very surprised when Henchard readily admitted to his wrong-doing when she accuses him. As has been remarked upon in previous comments, he has established a pattern of dodging responsibility for his actions. And to admit to such a damning charge! Maybe it was the shock of having it flung into his face so unexpectedly? It just seems that, with no other proof than the claim of a highly-disreputable witness, it would have been fairly easy to successfully dispute it. Could it be that, based on the other areas of his life that are going awry, that he starts to see the hand of Fate involved and that attempting to evade it will only result in worse to come?

It also seems that his admission of guilt would affect his engagement to Lucetta. She agrees to marry him to protect her reputation. How will her reputation be served if she marries a man so thoroughly disgraced? His admission of guilt can only strengthen her desire and argument to avoid such a union.

My sympathies are entirely with Elizabeth-Jane at this point. She seems to be met with loss or disappointment at every turn. I do hope to see that change as the novel continues, but we shall see! I also wasn't particularly surprised to see Farfrae lose his head over the attractive and flirtatious Lucetta. My philosophy is that you can never predict what anyone will do when it comes to money or sex! :)


message 9: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Jul 30, 2025 03:23PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1980 comments Mod
Well that was a surprise to me, that the furmity woman would reappear! (Though like Cindy, at the beginning of the chapter I had a feeling it might be her.)

I do like the way the country folk not only act as a commentary (or Greek Chorus) on the action, but also steer it. Every so often we have a little anecdote inserted, which feels to me if it might affect the future action.

In the case of the furmity woman, we have already met her twice, and both times she was a key driving force. First by selling Michael Henchard the porridge laced with rum, which led to his downfall, and second with Susan, directing her to Casterbridge, so that she could rekindle her relationship with her husband. It shows that for all the modern ways and practices, the old traditions and folk beliefs may pop up at any time to prevent any "progress". Nice too that the town hall abuts the church: society v. religion.

Location - In fact this old town hall had a relatively short life, being built in 1792 and being replaced by the present existing building in 1848. A narrow road-way now leads to North Square.

Nice choice of cover picture, Bridget. What a shocking young woman Lucetta must have seemed for sure, with that red dress.

(Oh! Lucetta is off to Port-Bredy today! I wonder if she will go to the folk festival too 😆)


message 10: by Pamela (new)

Pamela Mclaren | 273 comments Surprise on top of surprise! The revelation of Henchard's past as well as who said it publically really sets the tone of the chapter and the reader's excitement at what is to come.

Interestingly, while there is shame from his past, he has lived amongst the village a good while and should have impressed on the community that he has changed (of course until recently). But also so much like a small community, I rather doubt it. There will be tongues wagging about how so and so always knew there was a hidden past.

Where will the story go from here? Will the village shun him? Will he flee? Will Elizabeth-Jane stand with him? What will Lucetta do?


message 11: by Erich C (new)

Erich C | 131 comments As others mentioned in the previous thread, my feelings about Henchard swing in different directions depending on the episode. Now, I sympathize with him more. He is so defeated that he doesn't even dispute the truth of his past. He seems to recognize that he is on a downward path.


message 12: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Cindy wrote: "We were on an extended trip when the group read began, so I have been working diligently to get caught up. I have enjoyed all of the comments and illustrations–both have added a great deal to the m..."

I'm so glad you've caught up with us Cindy. The chapters just keep getting better and better, with so many twists and turns. It's great to have you here!


message 13: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Bionic Jean wrote: "Well that was a surprise to me, that the furmity woman would reappear! (Though like Cindy, at the beginning of the chapter I had a feeling it might be her.)

I do like the way the country folk not ..."


That was the first thing I thought of when I read about Port-Bredy! You were telling us about being there only a few days ago, and now I'm reading about it! Thank you for the info about the old town hall too


message 14: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
I'm so glad you all like the picture I posted of Lucetta in her red dress. We've talked so much about that red dress, but seeing the picture of it really brought home how much it made her stand apart from everyone.

I think we were all surprised that Henchard admitted the truth of the furmity woman's story. I think it was Claudia who said yesterday that we should pay attention to the offhand comment about Henchard going to be the judge at an old woman's trial. Good spotting there!

I also liked your connection to Les Miserables, the scenes feel very similar. Admitting the truth of a situation at great personal cost is a very compelling story telling device. We would have a completely different opinion of Henchard if he had called the old woman a liar.

I very much liked Peter's idea of this old woman as the crone holding Henchard's secret, and that they have similar paths of decline. That thought occurred to me as well as I was reading.

I think everyone is asking all the right questions, about what will happen next. What does this mean for Lucetta and Elizabeth. Well, let's read the next chapter and find out!


message 15: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
CHAPTER 29

Summary


Lucetta walks along the road. Before turning back, she peers into the distance, looking for any approaching figure. When she turns back toward town, it is Elizabeth-Jane who has decided to come meet her. Lucetta sees a loose bull on the road. At this time in the year, cattle are driven to and from Casterbridge to be auctioned. They notice that a stick hangs from the ring in the bull’s nose, which immediately alarms them, as this animal must have gone wild and escaped from whoever had been holding him.

They see a barn off the road, but as soon as they turn toward it, the bull begins to chase them. As they start to run, the bull charges. They run into the barn and circle inside, as the bull follows them in. At the last possible moment, a man appears, grabs the bull by the stick attached to its nose, and wrenches its head violently. Their rescuer is Henchard.

Henchard consoles a frantic Lucetta, saying that he has returned the favor of saving her, as she once saved him (while he was ill in Jersey). He says he followed her on her walk in order to speak with her. As they leave, Lucetta realizes she dropped her muff in the barn and Elizabeth-Jane offers to run back for it. After collecting the muff, Elizabeth-Jane looks at the bull, pitying him now that he stands quietly, his nose bleeding.

As she returns to the road, Elizabeth-Jane encounters Farfrae driving a wagon. She tells him what has happened, and he gives her a ride back to town. Although they see Henchard and Lucetta ahead of them, Farfrae does not hurry his horse in order to catch up with the pair on foot. Farfrae returns home, where his house is in disarray, as his servants learned that day that he is planning to move.

Henchard and Lucetta’s conversation on the walk back begins with Henchard’s apology for his behavior the other evening and his offer that they remain engaged until such a time as Lucetta is ready to marry. Lucetta says she is grateful for his help in rescuing her and wishes she could do some other thing in order to repay him.

Henchard suggests something else she could do to help him. His primary creditor Mr. Grower expects money, which Henchard cannot yet pay, given his financial situation. Henchard hopes that Lucetta will go with him before Mr. Grower to confirm their engagement, which will show that Henchard will be able to eventually pay off his debts. Lucetta says she cannot do this, and, eventually confesses that Mr. Grower was a witness of her marriage—to Mr. Farfrae when they married that very week in Port-Bredy.

Henchard bursts out angrily that Lucetta would marry Farfrae while bound in agreement to him. Lucetta says she knew she had to secure Farfrae before Henchard went so far as to confess the truth of their past situation. The bells of the church are ringing, in celebration of Farfrae and Lucetta’s marriage. Henchard says that he wishes to punish her for her betrayal by telling Farfrae everything, and Lucetta begs him not to do so, offering to pay off his debts for him. Henchard parts from her angrily.


message 16: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
A Little More . . .

The chapter begins with Elizabeth-Jane supporting Lucetta by accompanying her and at this point in the novel, the two women seem closer than they ever have been.

The bull that chases the two women presents a threat from the natural world. The natural world is beyond human control, threatening and influencing human lives. Henchard is able to establish physical control over the bull which is both comforting and troubling. Henchard treats the animal violently, reflecting his cruelty and ability to control.

Elizabeth-Jane’s observation of the bull and her pity for him reinforces Henchard’s act of rescue as, fundamentally, an act of domination. This shows what he is capable of in his treatment of others, and yet he did save these women.

Farfrae and Elizabeth-Jane have not been alone in a long time, and Farfrae’s offer to drive Elizabeth-Jane shows that the two treat each other as friends. Farfrae intentionally gives Lucetta and Henchard time to speak, which indicates that he must sense the tension between them.

Henchard apologies for his treatment of Lucetta but does not budge on the critical point: that she must one day marry him. Lucetta’s gratitude for his rescue shows that she is not completely repulsed by Henchard’s treatment and her knowledge of his past.

Henchard’s favor that he asks of Lucetta shows his focus on his own business affairs. Lucetta’s confession of her secret marriage is a surprise for both Henchard and the reader.

Lucetta’s underhanded manipulation of both men is clear when she confesses that she had to get Farfrae to marry her before he knew the truth. Henchard, now that he can no longer control Lucetta with their secret, threatens to punish her with it. Lucetta is revealed to be not so different from Henchard in this scene: willing to do whatever it takes to secure her own interests.

Elizabeth-Jane is once again barely noticed by the other characters. Henchard leads the bull out of the barn and returns to comfort Lucetta "for he had not perceived Elizabeth". And when Elizabeth encounters Farfrae, "He became so absorbed in the circumstances that he scarcely had suffciient knowledge of what he was doing to think of helping her up beside him".


message 17: by Bridget, Moderator (last edited Jul 31, 2025 12:54AM) (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
We have another Robert Barnes illustration for today's chapter. Usually, I post these from the Victorian Web. But for some reason I could not get their link to work for this illustration. I found an alternative and that's why the coloring is a bit off from what we are used to.



"She has gone on with Mr. Henchard, you say?"
Robert Barnes, plate 13, which appeared in the London The Graphic, 27 March 1886

Over to all of you . . . there were certainly more surprises in this chapter!!


message 18: by Claudia (last edited Jul 31, 2025 05:51AM) (new)

Claudia | 148 comments Great summary and comments of another eventful chapter, Bridget!

In terms of narrative, the chapter is cleverly built - or rather assembled like a puzzle where every apparently loose piece finally fits.

At first, everything seems puzzling indeed.

The road to and from Port Bredy is particularly interesting: no tree, a far reaching view, just a barn. It is a description of a perspective - as we used to draw in art classes, and no doubt Thomas Hardy was professionally familiar with that.

Moreover Lucetta seems isolated.

"There was neither hedge nor tree in the prospect now, the road clinging to the stubby expanse of corn-land like a strip to an undulating garment. Near her was a barn—the single building of any kind within her horizon.

She strained her eyes up the lessening road, but nothing appeared thereon—not so much as a speck. She sighed one word—“Donald!” and turned her face to the town for retreat."


I wondered why she said "Donald", which suggests a certain intimacy, while there is noone in sight excepted Elizabeth-Jane now, and a bull, and later Henchard and at last Farfrae.

How clever too was the mention of Farfrae's house upside down. We were certainly wondering what happened, but Farfrae was not surprised. Still we might have been wondering why he was moving out.

When we hear about how Lucetta had "secured" Donald (what a telling phrase!), every detail makes sense, including Farfrae's attention focused on Lucetta and Henchard checking his horse not to catch up with them.

Finally, Henchard's threat is very ominous and reason enough for reading on, as anything may happen:

“And now I’ve a mind to punish you as you deserve! One word to this brand-new husband of how you courted me, and your precious happiness is blown to atoms!”


message 19: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1980 comments Mod
Locations

If you spotted this yesterday:

"The Market House and Town Hall abutted against ... the church, except in the lower storey, where an arched thoroughfare gave admittance to a large square called Bull Stake"

then that functioned almost as foreshadowing!

The barn where Lucetta and Elizabeth-Jane were rescued from the bull was Damer's barn on Bridport road, which no longer exists.


message 20: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Jul 31, 2025 09:52AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1980 comments Mod
What a chapter - as Bridget says - full of twists and turns. And my dislike has now switched from Michael to Lucetta! Could we have guessed this further deception? She pleads her case, but ...

And is it in character for honest, genial Donald Farfrae to be a party to it? 🤔 As I mentioned before though, he does often seem oblivious to what is going on. Perhaps Lucetta has bewitched him - or perhaps there is more to come. This novel could easily be subtitled "Secrets, Lies and Deceptions"!

And nobody gives a thought for that poor old bull, who was probably just being playful 🥲

I must stop here as I have to catch a bus to "Port-Bredy" in just over an hour (honestly!) The market day is still Saturday, by the way, just as it was for Lucetta, and events such as the folk festival, impromptu musicians, poetry readings or Art shows take place in the town square, Bucky-Doo.

Farfrae rode in a smart green-and-black gig behind a horse, but I shall ride in a newfangled, open-topped blue omnibus 😉 The bus ride along the coast is one of the prettiest in England. Damer's Barn may have gone, but there is still the odd barn, and stone thatched roof cottages are placed round every corner, between the patchwork of fields and meadows. On the other side is the beautiful calm sea, and grassy sloped inclines of hills, dotted with trees and sheep.

Not much has changed.


message 21: by Peter (new)

Peter | 140 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "What a chapter - as Bridget says - full of twists and turns. And my dislike has now switched from Michael to Lucetta! Could we have guessed this further deception? She pleads her case, but ...

An..."


Jean What a treat to know you are literally following the footsteps of our characters in the novel. Added to that is the fact you have shared with us pictures of many locations that still exist today. Places where you have stood. Much appreciated. As always.


message 22: by Peter (new)

Peter | 140 comments Bridget

Where to start? This chapter is packed with twists, turns, and surprises.

I boiled it down to the words bull and bells. With the appearance of the bull, Hardy introduces a thinly veiled metaphor to the character of Henchard. Like the bull, Henchard is aggressive, threatening, and seemingly, as you noted, a person of the natural world. He is a threat to women. And yet, as the chapter evolves, the bull is tamed by Henchard. How ironic. The question arises if Henchard will ever be able to tame his own natural self. By the end of the chapter we see that with Lucetta’s revelations such control seems to be improbable.

The bells heard at the end of the chapter ring in celebration of Lucetta’s secretive marriage to Farfrae. Is it truly a marriage to celebrate or a marriage done in haste to keep long-held secrets secure? Hardy provides us with the information that Farfrae’s home is being packed up in preparation for a move. I wonder how secure and long his move will remain harmonious. Clearly, Lucetta is a person with many dimensions, and much secrecy.

Finally, poor Elizabeth-Jane. Lucetta has set a new direction for her own life but not had the courtesy to tell E-J. Elizabeth is in the centre of this maelstrom of character shifting. She is the eye of the storm. I think we need to keep her in view as the novel progresses.


message 23: by Kathleen (new)

Kathleen | 111 comments Elizabeth-Jane has certainly been neglected, but perhaps that's better for her, given this turn of events! She seems capable of dealing with the revelations to come, though I hope she gets the whole story eventually. Will Farfrae continue to be a literary device, or will we see his character show his true colors at some point?

Jean, thank you for taking us along with you through your description of the bus ride. How lovely it sounds!


message 24: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 148 comments Peter wrote: Elizabeth is in the centre of this maelstrom of character shifting. She is the eye of the storm. I think we need to keep her in view as the novel progresses.

Definitely! As far as I understood, she is not aware that Lucetta has just married Farfrae.

Nor is she aware of the rumour spread through the whole town, i.e. that the furmity woman has revealed that Henchard has sold his wife and daughter twenty years ago...


message 25: by Peter (new)

Peter | 140 comments Claudia wrote: "Peter wrote: Elizabeth is in the centre of this maelstrom of character shifting. She is the eye of the storm. I think we need to keep her in view as the novel progresses.

Definitely! As far as I u..."


Yes. So many secrets and misdirections. Hardy certainly knows how to set up his coming chapters.


message 26: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Jul 31, 2025 09:58AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1980 comments Mod
I'm back, after a day of sunshine, showers and a gentle breeze, all making the sea sparkle, and moving the clouds so the shadows pass across the hillside - and drenching the townsfolk of Port-Bredy off and on. All a bit like the ups and downs in this novel of quick changes, really.

And it occurs to me that we have seen this situation before, with a younger couple marrying in secret, and a forlorn older man who is behaving recklessly, risking his earlier good social standing, because of an obsession with the female. If I say the title of the story it would be a spoiler, so please only unclick this if you are sure who I'm talking about! (view spoiler).

Peter, I too picked up the "bullish" metaphor for Henchard, who now, like the bull is hurt and bleeding. Great description of his character. The bull was attracted by the red "rag" (dress), just as Henchard had been attracted by a pretty face on the same person, years before.


message 27: by Bridget, Moderator (last edited Jul 31, 2025 10:59AM) (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Bionic Jean wrote: "Peter, I too picked up the "bullish" metaphor for Henchard, who now, like the bull is hurt and bleeding. Great description of his character. The bull was attracted by the red "rag" (dress), just as Henchard had been attracted by a pretty face on the same person, years before.."

Extending the metaphor of the bull and Henchard a little more, it's all the more poignant to read of Elizabeth's sympathy for the bull,

"Coming out she paused to look for a moment at the bull, now rather to be pitied with his bleeding nose, having perhaps rather intended a practical joke than a murder"

I just wonder how much more sympathy Elizabeth will have for Henchard, because as Claudia pointed out, there are many secrets hidden from her. Will she ever find out that Henchard is not really her father? And will that deceit on Henchard's part be too much for Elizabeth? Hardy is certainly keeping me guessing about where this story will go.

btw Jean so glad you had a trip to the sea today. Showers and all, it sounds like there was enough sun to make the day a joyous one!


message 28: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Bionic Jean wrote: "If you spotted this yesterday:

"The Market House and Town Hall abutted against ... the church, except in the lower storey, where an arched thoroughfare gave admittance to a large square called Bull Stake"

then that functioned almost as foreshadowing!."


I totally missed that foreshadowing, thank you for bringing that part back up Jean. Well spotted!!


message 29: by Bridget, Moderator (last edited Jul 31, 2025 10:57AM) (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Claudia wrote: "Great summary and comments of another eventful chapter, Bridget!

In terms of narrative, the chapter is cleverly built - or rather assembled like a puzzle where every apparently loose piece finally..."


Isn't the writing wonderful in this chapter! I'm really glad, Claudia, that you pulled the quote about the road to Port-Bredy. That phrase "like a stripe to an undulating garment" is so wonderfully expressive. Almost like poetry in the middle of sentence.


message 30: by Bridget, Moderator (last edited Jul 31, 2025 10:58AM) (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Peter wrote: " Bridget

Where to start? This chapter is packed with twists, turns, and surprises.

I boiled it down to the words bull and bells. With the appearance of the bull, Hardy introduces a thinly veiled ..."


I love the alliteration of your connection, Peter: bulls and bells. Very clever!

I agree with you, I'm not sure this is a marriage to celebrate. The bells are ringing, but I'm not feeling all warm and fuzzy inside as I might expect to be when two genuine lovers are married. This feels false somehow. Not because Lucetta was "betrothed" to Henchard, because that union felt wrong. But this marriage between Farfrae and Lucetta feelsl like entrapment of Farfrae. And while my opinion of him has been falling, I don't wish a bad marriage on him.

I like Kathleen's thought that maybe Elizabeth is better off being neglected by these characters! I've had that same thought many times! I guess we will find out if she can continue to live with Lucetta now that she is married.


message 31: by Cindy (new)

Cindy Newton | 22 comments I was completely blindsided by the secret marriage! I speculated earlier that the revelation of Henchard's past misdeeds would fuel Lucetta's desire to be rid of him, but I never imagined she would take the bull by the horns so aggressively (pun intended!) :)

So Elizabeth-Jane has two very unpleasant surprises ahead of her. One would assume that she is not going to live with the newly married couple, and Donald appears to be vacating his premises that very day, so she may find herself homeless when she reaches High Place Hall. As a married woman, Lucetta no longer needs the chaperonage of a companion, so Elizabeth could also be out of a job. She can now go back to live with the father who clearly doesn't want her and who, she will discover, actually sold her to a stranger as a baby. This poor girl!!

I can't wait to get to the next chapter!


message 32: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Cindy wrote: "I was completely blindsided by the secret marriage! I speculated earlier that the revelation of Henchard's past misdeeds would fuel Lucetta's desire to be rid of him, but I never imagined she would..."

I was blindsided as well Cindy! As you point out, this marriage could be a very bad thing for Elizabeth. Even if Lucetta decides to let Elizabeth continue living at Hill House, how would that feel for Elizabeth to be living with a married couple, especially when she was once in love with the husband?

I suppose it's better than living with Henchard, who doesn't want her and will likely be very grouchy now. But not by much.

When you think about it, even though there have been many disappointments for Elizabeth, she's managed to live a fairly easy life since her mother died. Another girl of her age, and birth status would have likely been working a much harder job.


message 33: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
I'm posting a little early this evening, as I've got an early morning tomorrow and I'm soon off to bed. Also, I'm sorry to everyone that yesterday I forgot to include the link to chapter 29 in the first post of this thread, but I've added it now :-)


CHAPTER 30

Summary


Farfrae’s plans to move, as he discussed with his servants, are a transition to joining Lucetta in High-Place Hall. Lucetta greets him upon on his arrival, and tells him that she has not yet shared the situation of their marriage with Elizabeth-Jane. She asks Farfrae if it would be okay with him if Elizabeth-Jane continued to live at High-Place Hall, as her friend, as she has no other home. Farfrae agrees, but with some awkwardness, and perceives that Lucetta does not have any idea of Elizabeth-Jane’s history with Farfrae.

Lucetta reminds Elizabeth-Jane of the story she told her about her “friend,” but the younger woman drops the pretense and says that she knows Lucetta to be the one in the story. Although embarrassed at being found out, Lucetta attempts to explain how her commitment to the first man (Henchard) was brought about by the circumstances of their situation and the gossip of others. Elizabeth-Jane asks whether or not Lucetta has recently renewed her commitment to this man and adds that she realizes the “man” is Henchard. Lucetta pleads that she only did so under force and that she has discovered that Henchard is a man she would be afraid to marry.

Elizabeth-Jane says that she ought to marry Henchard, given how far they are entangled. If Lucetta cannot marry Henchard, Elizabeth-Jane feels that the only other possibility is for her to remain single. She is clear in her judgment of the situation this time, saying that it is Henchard or no one for Lucetta. Impropriety has always been a primary concern of Elizabeth-Jane’s, and something to be avoided at all costs.

Lucetta, overcome, shows Elizabeth-Jane the ring on her finger, at which Elizabeth-Jane happily assumes that Lucetta has, in fact, married Henchard. Lucetta corrects her, and invites her to still live in the house with herself and Farfrae. With great self-control, Elizabeth-Jane asks that she be allowed to consider the decision alone. She decides instantly that she cannot remain in the house, since she and Farfrae so nearly became engaged to each other.

Elizabeth-Jane finds lodgings nearly across the street from Henchard’s home and arranges to move there that very night. She knows that the annual sum from her father, plus her netting skills will earn enough money to support her. She leaves a note for Lucetta and departs. The town is celebrating the news of the marriage, and debating whether or not Farfrae will quit his business and set up on his wife’s money, or continue as a corn and wheat merchant.


message 34: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
A Little More . . .

Farfrae moves in with Lucetta because she has a nicer house, and greater wealth. For this time period, this was a non-traditional marriage. Because of her wealth, Lucetta is socially higher than Farfrae.
It’s interesting that Farfrae feels awkward at Elizabeth-Jane’s presence at High-Place Hall, which demonstrates that he knows he has wronged her in pursuing another woman, even if he did so for love. It’s also interesting that he says nothing about that to Lucetta.

Lucetta is invested in convincing Elizabeth-Jane that she did no wrong, as if, by doing so, she could be comfortable and confident about herself. She “pleads” with Elizabeth-Jane to understand how she was forced to agree to marry Henchard and her fear to marry him after learning what he did to his first wife. This plea does not include empathy for Elizabeth-Jane, or recognition that this terrible story involves her.

Elizabeth-Jane has changed her opinion. This may be due to Elizabeth-Jane knowledge of the identities of the main players in the situation. She gives strong advice that warns Lucetta away from Farfrae, and from impropriety, where before she refused to make any judgment.

Elizabeth-Jane’s misunderstanding of the ring on Lucetta’s finger increases the pain of the truth when it is finally made clear to her. This is a moment of dramatic irony: the reader knows that truth but must watch Elizabeth-Jane misunderstand and suffer through the realization that Farfrae has married another.

Elizabeth-Jane, ever practical, secures a place to live and considers her finances before leaving High-Place Hall. Her emotions, however, show through in her inability to say farewell to Lucetta or Farfrae. The perspective of the villagers and their gossip is again displayed as they discuss this new surprise marriage. As Jean pointed out yesterday, the townspeople act as a Greek chorus to this play.


message 35: by Bridget, Moderator (last edited Jul 31, 2025 11:23PM) (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Some literary and biblical references . . .

Nathan tones - " 'You -- have -- married Mr. Farfrae!' cried Eliabeth-Jane, in Nathan tones."
This is a reference to 2 Samuel 12:1-14. Having deliberately arranged the death of Uriah the Hittite in battle, David marries his widow Bathsheba, whom he has already made pregnant. Nathan the prophet constructs a parable to ask David how such a man should be treated, and when David condemns the conduct, Nathans responds 'Thou art the man'.


John Gilpin - "At the last moment of leaving Port-Bredy Farfrae, like John Gilpin, had been detained by important customers"

The story of John Gilpin comes from William Cowper's poem The Diverting History of John Gilpin, which you may have encountered before. I think Charles Dickens made reference to it, but I can't remember in which novel or short story. Perhaps one of you will remember. At any rate, the story of John Gilpin goes that he was about to leave for an inn to celebrate his twentieth wedding anniversary and first holiday, he delays when three customers arrive. Gilpin's thrift is shared by his wife, who advocates taking their own wine to the inn. Like Lucetta, she goes ahead, accompanied by her sister and four children, in a light carriage designed for two. These economies ruin the celebration. Association with the meagre and comically ineffectual Gilpin implicitly judges Farfrae and his own privileging of business interest over romantic pleasure.



This picture, by Randolph Caldecott accompanied the 1878 republished version of the poem and became the basis for the design of the Caldecott Medal. You can read more about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Div...


Tomorrow is a FREE day. We will resume with Chapter 31 on Sunday, August 3rd

Over to you . . . .



message 36: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Aug 01, 2025 11:34AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1980 comments Mod
Bridget - I'm smiling to myself, as I've logged on first thing to make the link ... completely forgetting that since it's your new thread, you can do it yourself now 😆 It's so funny that we both made the same mistake.

What a bounty we have from you today, thank you! I particularly appreciate your explanation of the reference to Nathan. So this is a another indication of Farfrae's parallel in the Bible: David. I do think Farfrae is a bit of a puppet today, and as for Lucetta, with the:

"One supreme fact empowered her to this, that come what would, she had secured him"

- what a schemer she is to be sure! She actually used the same word before, to Henchard "I knew I should lose Donald if I did not secure him at once" What a terrible basis for a marriage. This is from a 21st century point of view, admittedly, but it does demonstrate what Thomas Hardy believed about what he called "women's wiles".

Elizabeth's firm views, so stridently expressed, came as a surprise. I am wondering, with each of these three, if their behaviour is psychologically viable, or whether the exigencies of the plot are uppermost in Thomas Hardy's mind at the moment. 🤔

I also noticed the neat coincidence of the very person who witnessed their wedding, Mr Grower, being the same person whom Henchard asked Lucetta to drop broad hints to about her betrothal to him! But I don't mind coincidences. They can be dramatically satisfying (as the Greeks found), and after all, they do happen in real life.

We actually have the "red rag to a bull" mentioned as a saying now!


message 37: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Aug 01, 2025 02:41AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1980 comments Mod
Lucetta and Farfrae married in Port-Bredy.

Port-Bredy - or Bridport - used to be famous for its rope-making. In fact that's how the town developed. It has a very broad main street, which surprises visitors in a town of its age. (We asked about this ourselves, once. 🙂)

The streets of these historic English towns are generally narrow, with overhanging gables where the occupants can pass things to each other from an upper storey. But in Bridport, once the ropes were made, they were hung across the street house to house from the bedrooms to dry, so they needed a very long span. In 1858 there were 14 distinct firms manufacturing nets, cordage and canvas in Bridport, and there are still a similar number of firms that are involved in the rope-making industry. It also has a pub called "The Ropemakers Arms".

We are told in ch 30 that Elizabeth Jane has:

"a wonderful skill in netting of all sorts - acquired in childhood by making seines in Newson's home".

"Seines" are large fishing nets, hence Elizabeth-Jane could easily get involved in the trade in Port-Bredy. It's so apt that by chance or fate, her biological father - a sailor - is making provision for her even now, "from his watery grave" so to speak.


message 38: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Aug 01, 2025 11:36AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1980 comments Mod
Bridget - As far as I know, I don't think there is a direct relation between William Cowper's The Diverting History of John Gilpin and Charles Dickens.

Perhaps a mental connection is through the illustrations? Hablot Knight Browne, ("Phiz") who illustrated many of Dickens's works also created images for "John Gilpin's Ride". There may have been collaborations with other illustrators of both too.

I'd need to check textual references to the poem in my books when I'm home, as none spring to mind. Peter might know - he's a Dickens expert 🙂


message 39: by Claudia (last edited Aug 01, 2025 04:51AM) (new)

Claudia | 148 comments Thank you Bridget for your rich posts and Jean for your additional information and comments.

I had mentioned the strange phrase about "securing" Farfrae in my earlier comment, message 18, (When we hear about how Lucetta had "secured" Donald (what a telling phrase!), every detail makes sense...) and seeing it used again by Lucetta in this chapter shows that it was definitely not incidental 🙂. Lucetta is scheming and plotting but, oppositely, Elizabeth-Jane is an example of integrity and resilience and also self-control ("corking up the turmoil of her feeling with grand control"), and, upon considering the whole situation, of determination.

While the whole town now knows about how Henchard sold his wife and daughter, I am not sure if Elizabeth-Jane knows the bottom of the story, even if she admits that he "[treated her] mother badly once, it seems, in a moment of intoxication".

Moving out of High-Place Hall to lodgings almost opposite Henchard's house opens up perhaps new possibilities for Elizabeth-Jane, if Henchard's heart softens. At any rate, her new home is also an interesting observation post.

I also liked the parallels with Nathan the Prophet who was warning King David. King David was not only "that man" but said to be red haired (like Donald)and the composer of most Psalms, including Psalm 50/51 (depending on the Bible version) the great Psalm of repentance after that sad Uriah episode. David was also said to be an outstanding singer, just like our Scotsman.


message 40: by Peter (last edited Aug 01, 2025 08:11AM) (new)

Peter | 140 comments Jean and Bridget I enjoy falling down rabbit holes so the question of whether Cowper’s ‘John Gilpin’ has any direct connection to Dickens is interesting. I first took myself into my own mind and could not recall anything. Next was a visit to Chat GPT. There I was told there was a connection in chapter 11 of ‘David Copperfield’ in a quotation by Barkis. Well, I then go to chapter 11 of DC where I find Barkis does not even appear in that chapter. I backtracked to chapter 5 where Barkis and David do converse, but, in my opinion, no convincing fit. Jean may find a better fit. Once again, my hope that ChatGPT will help has been dashed somewhat. A cautionary tale.

That said, Hablot Browne was certainly familiar with ‘John Gilpin.’ Browne’s early illustrations reflect his joy of carriages, horses galloping, barnyard animals running about and hats flying off people. Browne himself loved to ride. Indeed, his son once commented that his father would ride down their home’s path to the road rather than walk to get the mail.

If we look at the illustrations for ‘The Pickwick Papers’ you will see many of Browne’s illustrations that recall such visual action as is found in Cowper’s poem. Thinking about it now I can see how the action of ‘John Gilpin’ could well have inspired Dickens and found its way into some of the adventures of ‘The Pickwick Papers.’

If you are interested please find below a link to Sotheby’s Auction House which had a lovely silver punch bowl that depicted parts of John Gilpin’s ride.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA9fT...


message 41: by Kathleen (new)

Kathleen | 111 comments Such wonderful background info--thank you Bridget and all!

My favorite reference in this chapter was to Elizabeth-Jane reading Ovid. "Like the poet Ovid I've just been construing: 'Video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor'", which my book's notes translate to The Metamorphoses of Ovid, Medea and Jason, "I see which is the better course, and I approve it; but still I follow the worse." I love how Elizabeth-Jane is not only reading deeply but also applying what she's learning to life!

I was born with a strong desire to be self-sufficient, and that part of me was very contented with E-J's actions at the end of this chapter. :-) Again, I believe she'll land on her feet no matter what.


message 42: by Cindy (new)

Cindy Newton | 22 comments I was a little taken aback at Elizabeth-Jane's uncharacteristic forcefulness on her opinion of Lucetta's obligation to Mr. Henchard. I wonder if she would have felt that strongly if a man other than Donald Farfrae was the other suitor for Lucetta's hand. I'm not saying she wouldn't, but she would only be human if this knowledge did not influence her a little. Could she also possibly feel that if Henchard achieves his desire of marrying Lucetta that it will bring his daughter back into his good graces? When she sees Lucetta's wedding ring and assumes she has married Henchard, she exclaims "we shall all three be happy together now!" (165). Perhaps she believes that his joy in his marriage will cause the frostiness he shows his daughter to thaw. Instead, Elizabeth-Jane is once more cast adrift and has no one to turn to.

Lucetta's use of the word secure to describe her marriage to Donald reminded me of Charlotte Lucas in Pride and Prejudice, opining that Jane should not show reserve in her behavior with Bingley, but do everything she can to encourage his proposal. All the emotions can be sorted out "when she is secure of him" (15). Charlotte's stance was based on practicality--the Bennett sisters were fighting for survival, since they were looking at a bleak future if they remained unmarried. Lucetta's decision is based on selfishness. She admits to Elizabeth-Jane that "she was so afraid of revelations that would quench his love for [her], that [she] resolved to do it offhand, come what might, and purchase a week of happiness at any cost!" (166). She loves him so much that she is willing to condemn him to a life tied to a woman he despises so that she can enjoy his affections for the brief period before the truth comes to light. Her desires, her emotions are clearly the only ones that matter.

Elizabeth-Jane shows her strength and resilience when she doesn't despair at this news, but swings into action to get herself out of yet another toxic situation. She is possessed of so much integrity and such a strong, cool-headed character, and yet is unappreciated by those who should be most aware of it.


message 43: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Peter wrote: " Jean and Bridget I enjoy falling down rabbit holes so the question of whether Cowper’s ‘John Gilpin’ has any direct connection to Dickens is interesting. I first took myself into my own mind and ..."

Thank you so much Peter for diving into that particular rabbit hole. I was inspired by your ChatGPT search and did one of my own with "Thomas Hardy and Gilpin" and I figured out why the Gilpin poem seemed so familiar to me. I ran across it in Far From the Madding Crowd, when this group read it a year ago. Here's a link to what I posted, in case anyone is curious.

I'm so sorry for taking us on a Dickens tangent when it was Hardy all along. Though it was fun to get that detail about Halbot Browne riding his horse to get the mail. And I also loved the link to the silver punch bowl and video. Lovely! Thank you.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...


message 44: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Aug 01, 2025 02:46PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1980 comments Mod
Cindy wrote about Charlotte Lucas advising Jane Bennet to encourage Mr. Bingley in Pride and Prejudice, as: "All the emotions can be sorted out when she is secure of him" (15)..."

This is a very good example. It indicates that in the 18th and 19th centuries, not only was security an essential state for females, but "to secure" a man, used as a verb was openly discussed in that context. To me it suggests entrapment. Sorry Claudia, if I have inadvertently repeated your point!

Cindy - "I wonder if she would have felt that strongly if a man other than Donald Farfrae was the other suitor for Lucetta's hand."

Ah, excellent thought. I think you're on to something there!

Peter - Sorry you've had a useless search. Yes, internet searches are full of mistakes, aren't they, and do have to be checked (as you did). But they can be a useful starting place.


message 45: by Peter (last edited Aug 01, 2025 04:21PM) (new)

Peter | 140 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Cindy wrote about Charlotte Lucas advising Jane Bennet to encourage Mr. Bingley in Pride and Prejudice, as: "All the emotions can be sorted out when she is secure of him" (15)..."..."

Yes. Words can become rather fluid over time and our focus on the word ‘secure’ is an excellent example. In the 19C courtship, love, and marriage were viewed very differently than today, especially with marriages that involved wealth, property, one’s social position, and definitely a title. We are now seeing in this novel how one’s social position can dictate several nuances of thought and action.

One of my favourite expressions from the Victorian era is the phrase ‘interesting situation’ which was often used to describe a woman who was pregnant.

No worries Jean. . Rabbit holes are a place I love to visit. I am often surprised what I find. Check, check, verify. Then cross your fingers when you finally write something.


message 46: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 148 comments Jean wrote: Sorry Claudia, if I have inadvertently repeated your point!

No harm done, Jean!

I also understood that phrase as evidence of a certain opportunism linked to Lucetta's self-centred attitude.

Let's note her attitudes when she is talking with Elizabeth-Jane, her diva-like mimicry suggests an actress's play.


message 47: by Pamela (last edited Aug 02, 2025 03:55PM) (new)

Pamela Mclaren | 273 comments I loved reading the last two chapters but I'm really worried about Henchard, whose reputation is shot as well as Lucetta's deception, and Elizabeth-Jane discovering Farfrae married to Lucetta. At least she has the strength of character and ethics. Now that he has little, why stay in this town that now holds so many memories? How will be regain any sort of position?

And Farfrae — is he so easy to deceive and control? That's not the first impression I got of him — did he really conceive of a fragile china doll of a wife, someone who uses underhanded means to achieve her wishes? When he got to know Elizabeth-Jane, I thought he was looking for someone with a free will, who forms her own opinions yet is kind and generous. I don't see Lucetta as that at all.


message 48: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Bionic Jean wrote: "Elizabeth-Jane could easily get involved in the trade in Port-Bredy. It's so apt that by chance or fate, her biological father - a sailor - is making provision for her even now, "from his watery grave" so to speak."

Jean,I really like your thought about Elizabeth's father looking out for her from the grave. It makes me feel like Elizabeth isn't completely alone.

Claudia, I did not know about David having red hair and being a singer! I'm certain that's not a coincidence, and that Hardy very much intended the association. Thank you for that additional depth to the comparison.


message 49: by Bridget, Moderator (last edited Aug 02, 2025 09:19PM) (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Bionic Jean wrote: "This is a very good example. It indicates that in the 18th and 19th centuries, not only was security an essential state for females, but "to secure" a man, used as a verb was openly discussed in that context. To me it suggests entrapment." (15)..."..."

Regarding Cindy's excellent comparison to "Pride and Prejudice", if I might add on to what everyone has been saying security for 18th and 19th century women. I think that Susan's need for safety and security has been driving the plot of this story since the beginning. She willingly leaves Henchard because she thinks a stranger safer than her husband. And after Newsom dies, she tries to find Henchard again for the same reasons.

Hardy was sensitive to the double standards and difficulties women faced, and I think we are seeing some of that here. It's true Lucetta has enough wealth to live on her own and doesn't need to "secure" a husband for her own safety, but it's also unfair that her "relations" with Henchard in Jersey, will haunt her reputation in a way that Henchard won't feel at all.

I wonder if Hardy is trying to illustrate how that leads some women to desperation. With some of his other novels ("Tess" for instance) the situation is more straightforward. With Lucetta, it's harder to tell what Hardy is doing because as we've discussed Lucetta is dramatic, selfish, and self-absorbed. I haven't made my mind up totally about her. That's part of what makes this an interesting story!


message 50: by Bridget, Moderator (new)

Bridget | 858 comments Mod
Kathleen wrote: "My favorite reference in this chapter was to Elizabeth-Jane reading Ovid. "Like the poet Ovid I've just been construing: 'Video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor'", which my book's notes translate to The Metamorphoses of Ovid, Medea and Jason, "I see which is the better course, and I approve it; but still I follow the worse."

I'm so glad you mentioned this Kathleen. Not all the editions of this novel will have the Ovid reference. In my Penguin Edition, they only include Ovid in the notes section, not in the text.

There were several editions printed of TMOC during Hardy's lifetime, and he made many changes over the years. In fact, when we come to Chapter 44, we will have a bigger discussion about his changes because they are significant in that chapter.

But for now, I just wanted to mention that in 1912, Macmillan published the "Wessex Edition" of TMOC, and that was the first time "Ovid" appeared in chapter 30. Before that Hardy used the reference to The Apostle Paul from Romans 7:19 "for the good that I would I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do".
Its a nice quote, but I rather like the Ovid change.

It introduces a romantic parallel because the context of the quote is Medea's unsuccessful resistance to her love of Jason - which parallels Lucetta's love of Farfrae. But as Kathleen says so well Ovid also makes us love Elizabeth that much more as it shows her intelligence!


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