The Sword and Laser discussion

I've been mulling starting a topic on the fantasy elements in the novel for a while now. I want to start with the disclaimer that while I have some familiarity with aspects of Chinese history and culture, mostly through the lens of Taoism, I would say my knowledge is more superficial than any deep understanding. So I invite correction anywhere I misunderstand or misrepresent something.

I found it personally compelling that the two main fantasy elements in the book were so deeply rooted in Chinese culture, belief, and practice. And both trace their roots back at least three thousand years.

The Mandate of Heaven, which I understand could also be literally translated Heaven's Command, seems more a reflection that a ruler is ruling wisely and justly. Famines and other disasters, like the severe drought and famine in the start of the book, were seen as one form of evidence that a ruler was not ruling well. The mandate was countered with a right of rebellion and if a rebellion was successful that demonstrated their grievance was just and the ruler had lost their mandate by ruling so poorly that rebellion was necessary.

I've never been able to fully grasp the meaning of Tian, the symbol translated "Heaven", in Chinese culture and thought. It's tied back to their most ancient cultural religious practices and is the framework within which Confucianism developed. It's interwoven in different ways with Daoist thought. And in all uses it never loses connection with its basic, core meaning of 'sky'.

The novel makes the mandate visible, a fire the bearer can call for all to see. But it functions essentially the same. We see the mandate sputtering and beginning to leave the Yuan ruler for many reasons, not least the drought and rise of bandits at the outset of the novel. And others able to manifest their version of the mandate supports their right of rebellion. But the mandate itself shows nothing but a potential possibility that must be seized and made real. I found the way that the mandate manifests as a different color for each opposing bearer intriguing and we see more of that in the second novel.

And that is closely paired with the ghosts of the story. From what I gather, ghosts also have an ancient connection in Chinese culture and belief that seems to have evolved with the development of Daoism and the introduction of Buddhism. In the oldest beliefs wandering ghosts, which I gather were usually seen as malevolent, happened when a person's descendants did not honor and feed their ancestor. I think the development of the specific idea, though, of a 'hungry ghost' as we see often in the story was tied more to beliefs and interwoven ideas that arose as Buddhism grew to be significant in China.

I found it a compelling element that only those with the potential to hold the mandate could actually see the ghosts. In fact, the ability to see ghosts sometimes came well before the manifested mandate itself. We see that with Zhu as a young child. I also found it very interesting that until she takes the name and identity and fate of the dead Zhu Chongba, the protagonist is only ever referenced as "the girl" or called things like "useless girl" but never named.

And we see how important a role the ghosts play very early and how it's tied to the mandate. There's a scene with "the girl's" father below.

As the girl licked her bowl clean. her father laid out two melon seeds on their crude family shrine: one to feed their ancestors, and the other to appease the wandering hungry ghosts who lacked their own descendants to remember them.

After a moment, the girl's father rose from his stiff reverence before the shrine. He turned back to the children and said with quiet ferocity, "One day soon our ancestors will intervene to end this suffering. They will."


I'm curious if anyone has thoughts to add on either the way the Mandate of Heaven was used or the manner in which the ghosts permeated the feel of the novel.

I am no historian, certainly not of China, but I always figured that the Mandate of Heaven functioned in a similar way to the western philosophy of the divine right of kings. Your discussion definitely makes me question how parallel those concepts are, but I remain a bit too jaundiced about anyone's right or mandate to rule, especially based on who their father was, or (almost as bad) on the sort of destiny that our main character here claims.

It makes complete sense to me that a ruler or aspiring ruler would claim to have heaven's backing when it came to rule, even as much as that's a load of crap. I like that the fantasy of this book ties the mandate to people's means and actions rather than to some heavenly force. There's that merchant general with the mandate because of his wealth and his army. There's Zhu who perpetrates some seriously Machiavellian schemes to get the mandate for herself. Whatever it means in history, I think this book has an appropriately gritty and low-fantasy view of the mandate where it appears with those that already have the power to grasp it.

I was very interested to read the interview with SPC (link shared by Silvana in the episode thread) where she said she wrote the book originally as historical fiction and then added the supernatural elements in later at the request of the publisher. It makes sense that the supernatural elements are more “flavour” than essential to the story, and also that they are very embedded into the world of Chinese culture. It’s essentially a story about Chinese history where the things the people of the time believed are made literal. It makes the magic feel very organic, as it has been grown from the culture rather than imposed from outside l

Ruth wrote: "she wrote the book originally as historical fiction and then added the supernatural elements in later at the request of the publisher. It makes sense that the supernatural elements are more “flavour” than essential to the story"

That would explain why they felt tacked on to me.

This book was a big miss for me, from the prose fighting itself to the lazy addition of a gay character to just being overlong.

I’ve always loved books where authors go, “What if this one thing changed in history, what would’ve happened?” Here she sticks in a queer character and then everything proceeds the way it did in real life. What’s the point of that?

These China-centric semi-Fantasy books that have come out recently have really been disappointing. They feel like mishmash hamburger, and when you learn a little bit about Chinese history you realize just how badly they’re done. Might as well read a white guy’s version of the events for all the lack of authenticity.

Trike wrote: "Ruth wrote: "she wrote the book originally as historical fiction and then added the supernatural elements in later at the request of the publisher. It makes sense that the supernatural elements are..."

I can see the point about the fantasy elements. Although || having a physical manifestation of the mandate of heaven did both give Zao more confidence, and had a plausible plot point.|| I don't think the fact that she was gay was nearly as important that it was a she, and dealing with both that part of her and pretending to be her brother at the same time. The love story (I guess either of them, although I'm not sure you could call the second one a love story) did not add much to the story for me either, but did see it more important to the development of Zao then Ouyang. It also allowed the point of view of Ma, and thought that was well done as well, although it did hit you over the head a bit with the themes of the book.

I don't know. I didn't feel like the fantasy elements were tacked on - see Scott's discussion of ghosts above - just that they weren't emphasized.

As for everything proceeding the way it does in history - that's a good description of historical fiction which is a genre that I (and lots of people) enjoy. The point might not be "let's see what happens if this" but books that do things like "how did this event feel for these people" or "let's color in the outline of this person that history thinly sketched in" can both be really interesting. This one gives a go at the question "how could this be true, but history remains true too?" That's kinda neat. It's like listening to classical music - knowing that the whole thing will resolve into a some pleasant major chord by the end doesn't make all the diversions along the way pointless.

I haven't read the interview Silvana did with Shelley Parker-Chan since it's in a group you have to be a part of to read. But I did read a number of different interviews since this was a book about which I was very interested in understanding the author's intent. One of the interviews which also discussed the fantasy elements was this one.

https://www.liminalmag.com/interviews...

The interview also covers quite a few other things. But this captures the way magic was integrated quite well.

"So I added magic. My approach ultimately involved bringing traditional beliefs to the surface. Back in the fourteenth century, people believed very strongly in forces outside of themselves. Fate was very, very real. Your ancestors were really watching you and they would be disappointed if you fucked up. So I brought all that up to the surface. Chinese ghosts are very creepy, and they were quite fun to evoke."

The fantasy elements weren't tacked on. The novel was reworked to incorporate them using traditional Chinese beliefs. A published novel rarely looks like the initial draft. Depending on the author and a lot of other circumstances, the changes might be relatively minor or they could be major changes to the structure, plot elements, timing, or even characters. So significant revisions like that aren't especially unusual during the editing and publishing process.

I was more interested in the specific fantasy elements used within the context of the novel and the way they were rooted in some pretty culturally significant elements of the historical setting. I also didn't find it strange that they were added during the editing process. The fantasy elements were integrated into the plot and were significant to its progression and the development of the characters. That's even more true in the sequel.

Seth wrote: "As for everything proceeding the way it does in history - that's a good description of historical fiction which is a genre that I (and lots of people) enjoy"

I’ve enjoyed plenty of Historical Fiction, from John Jakes to Michener to Clavell, as well as Secret History, but this book didn’t work as either in my opinion. At this point I don’t recall exactly what it was that made me expect this book was going to be Alternate History but that definitely did happen early on, and I struggle to enjoy a book where promises made aren’t kept. Adding that to the other issues equals a story I didn’t care for.

There was another book I read years ago set in the same era, and I wish I could remember what it was because I was just thinking the other day how the parallels with that time in China and what’s happening currently in Russia are remarkably the same.