The History Book Club discussion

This is the reading assignment for week two - (November 8, 2009 to November 14, 2009):

Chapters 4 - 6: (pages 43 - 98)

Rendering Myself Worthy of Their Esteem: 1831-34 - page 43

The Whole People of Sangamon: 1834-37 - page 61

Without Contemplating Consequences: 1837-42 - page 79

Hello Everyone,


We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers.

This book was kicked off on November 1st.

We look forward to your participation. Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

Since we only started this book on November 1st, there is still time remaining to obtain the book and get started.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

For those of you who would like to kick this thread off early, please be my guest; however this thread is only dedicated to pages 43 - 98 (Chapters 4 - 6) (so no spoilers beyond those pages).

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL



Ronald C. White Jr.

The beginning of chapter 4 is where White describes the events surrounding Lincoln's famous wrestling match with Jack Armstrong, the leader of a local gang called the Clary's Grove Boys. "In a time when men settled their arguments with fists, the Clary's Grove Boys were the bullies of the neighbourhood. They gained their supremacy by fighting, especially wrestling." pg 47

Denton Offutt, the store manager where Lincoln worked as a clerk, "boasted that Lincoln could run faster and jump farther than anyone in the country, and could beat anyone at wrestling. ...In the fall of 1831, Armstrong and Lincoln met for a match." pg 46-47

On page 61 of Michael Burlingame's Abraham Lincoln A Life, Burlingame states that "Offutt bet rival storekeeper Bill Clary $5 that Lincoln could outwrestle any challenger, including Armstrong. (Offutt reportedly won $50 in New Orleans betting that Lincoln could lift 1000lbs.) As one of the Clary's Grove Boys remembered, he and his cohorts 'haw-hawed at this a little... But Jack Armstrong, the pride of our settlement, ...tough as whit-leather, and wiry as a wild-cat, the man that never could be throwed, ...saying that his bones was aching with nothing but strength, ...and would like a good freshener of a wrestle fust-rate.'"

Burlingame continues that Lincoln was "quite irritated by Offutt's challenge." Lincoln "was by nature a peacemaker, not a fighter."

"The day of the match a large crowd gathered near Offutt's store. Though Armstrong was exceptionally strong and a clever wrestler, he found it difficult to cope with Lincoln's great reach and height. As the contest went on," ...Lincoln "got the better of it. Just as it seemed that Lincoln would prevail, Bill Clary shouted to his man, 'Throw him away, Jack.'"

"Breaking the rules of wrestling with a hold permissible only in scuffling, Armstrong instantly threw Lincoln, who angrily 'said that if it ever came right, he would give Bill Clary a good licking.' At that point a general fight nearly broke out, but Lincoln fearlessly quelled the threat."

Lincoln's "courage, strength, and good natured acceptance of Armstrong's violation of the rules impressed New Salemites, especially the Clary's Grove Boys. ...The popularity he thus gained helped lay the foundation for his political career. ...That Lincoln won such support without sharing their enthusiasm for drinking, gander pulling, and general mayhem was a tribute to his remarkable capacity for making and keeping friends." pg 62

Thanks Joe for the additional details. It is hard for me to believe looking at Lincoln's photos that he was that strong.

Bentley wrote: "Thanks Joe for the additional details. It is hard for me to believe looking at Lincoln's photos that he was that strong. "

We can only imagine what he looked like bare-chested. He did nothing but swing an axe for his first twenty years.

This reminds me of the first chapter of Shelby Foote's The Civil War A Narrative where he describes young Jefferson Davis' reluctance in going to school one day. "He didn't like it. ...he would not go. Very well, his father said, but he could not be idle, and he sent him to the field with the work gang. Two days later Jeff was back at his desk. 'The heat of the sun and the physical labor, in conjunction with the implied equality with the other cotton pickers, convinced me that school was the lesser evil.'" pg 6

I smiled deeply after first reading that. LOL
Obviously, Lincoln didn't have that choice.

Dad seemed to know how to motivate Lincoln in his own way. If you did not like my first offer; you are just going to love my next one.

Cotton picking was very hot and back breaking work. Not surprised that young Lincoln did not like it.

Thank you Joe for another anecdote. They are great ones.

In March of 1832, Lincoln, for the first time, tries to enter public office by announcing in the Sangamo Journal his wishes to be a candidate for the state legislature. The complete text of his announcement can be found here at the online Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln at umich.edu.

Every man is said to have his peculiar ambition. Whether it be true or not, I can say for one that I have no other so great as that of being truly esteemed of my fellow men, by rendering myself worthy of their esteem. How far I shall succeed in gratifying this ambition, is yet to be developed. I am young and unknown to many of you. I was born and have ever remained in the most humble walks of life. I have no wealthy or popular relations to recommend me. My case is thrown exclusively upon the independent voters of this county, and if elected they will have conferred a favor upon me, for which I shall be unremitting in my labors to compensate. But if the good people in their wisdom shall see fit to keep me in the background, I have been too familiar with disappointments to be very much chagrined. Your friend and fellow-citizen,
New Salem, March 9, 1832. A. LINCOLN.

White explains that this last paragraph of his announcement discloses "something remarkable" about young Abraham. "Lincoln did not see himself as alone in ambition. ...he "shifted the balance and tone of his final words by turning that ambition into desire 'of being truly esteemed of my fellow men.' Behind these words is Lincoln's awareness that ambition can lead to selfish egotism in politics. His unvoiced question was: How can I be esteemed? His answer: 'by rendering myself worthy.'" pg 50

What else can be said of Lincoln from this announcement?

I particularly like his last sentence, "I have been too familiar with disappointments to be very much chagrined."

Lincoln knows he is not well distinguished, but he counters that shortcoming by showing his track record of "rendering himself worthy." He does not win this state legislature seat, but he did very well in his own district. That teaches him a valuable lesson in that he needs to travel more broadly across the state during the next election.

Thank you for the extra details regarding Lincoln. For me, they add a great deal to our understanding of the man..for me he seems like a still water which ran very deep.

While reading a bit more into Lincoln's first attempt at public office from Burlingame's Abraham Lincoln A Life, I learned that James Rutledge, an owner of an inn in New Salem where Lincoln occasionally stayed, urged him to run because he was impressed after seeing him at a local literary society meeting the previous winter. "Other friends seconded the idea but for different reasons. The run was "regarded as a joke; the boys wanted some fun; he was so uncouth and awkward, and so illy dressed, that his candidacy afforded a pleasant diversion for them, but it was not expected that it would go any further." ..."When Lincoln finally agreed to run, he issued a lengthy announcement. John McNamar helped him compose the document and correct the grammar." pg 71 ...Very interesting...

Burlingame goes on a few pages later about Lincoln's final paragraph of his campaign statement. "Lincoln's ambition, like that of many other politicians, was clearly rooted in an intense craving for deference and approval. ...He desired more than ego-gratifying power an prestige; he wanted everyone to have a chance to escape the soul-crushing poverty and backwardness that he had experienced. ...In 1852, he attributed his own views to the recently deceased Henry Clay: 'Mr.Clay's predominant statement, from first to last, was a deep devotion to the cause of human liberty - a strong sympathy with the oppressed every where, and an ardent wish for their elevation. With him, this was a primary and all controlling passion.'" pg 73

Great side stories which add so much to the picture we have of Lincoln.

Henry Clay was one of the most prominent statesmen of his generation. Abraham Lincoln highly respected Clay, and I'm sure mimicked and studied his oratory style and speeches. Because of Abraham Lincoln, Henry Clay is another individual I would like to read more about.

Isn't it funny how much Lincoln admired Clay and yet how much Jackson hated him and Calhoun.

Do you have any names of books about Clay we could put on the reading list.

Bentley wrote: "Do you have any names of books about Clay we could put on the reading list."

I haven't read any of these, so I don't know how good they are, but I recently picked up The Great Triumvirate: Webster, Clay, and Calhoun by Merrill Peterson. Getting the whole picture of Webster, Clay, and Calhoun together during pre-civil war struggles sounds really good. I read somewhere that one of these great men should have made it to the white house instead of the losers who were there in their place. Trying to find out why the best men of their generation failed to become President is one of my motivations for reading this.

Also, I have Henry Clay: Statesman for the Union by Robert V. Remini on my wish-list. Anything by Robert V. Remini must be good.

These look like some excellent books to add. Just posted the Peterson link below.

Merrill D. Peterson

I've read Remini's Clay many years ago and really liked it, so I would recommend it. We forget how iconic he was during his life-time.

Lincoln tries again to enter into public office in the spring of 1834, but this time he took advantage of what he learned in his defeat two years before, and succeeded.

"On Monday, December 1st, 1834, Lincoln arrived for his first session in the Illinois legislature. At twenty five, Lincoln was the second youngest of the fifty-five representatives. Thirty-six representatives were also starting their first term, yet all brought more experience than Lincoln to the task." pg 62

Two days later Lincoln introduced his first bill, "an act to limit the jurisdiction of Justices of the Peace." He observed how his bill was stalled in legal loopholes, and how it never again recovered.

"Within a month, Lincoln had earned the right to be heard in the legislature." ...they "had moved to fill the post of surveyor for Schuyler County because a report had been received that the incumbent had died. The House nominated and the Senate confirmed Samuel McHatton to be the new surveyor, but" ...the incumbent was in fact alive, and now that there was no vacancy, they moved that the nomination of McHatton 'be vacated.'"

"Lincoln stood up to protest." ...He countered, "'There was no danger of the new surveyor's ousting the old one so long as he persisted not to die.' He then suggested, 'the propriety of the letting matters remain as they were, so that if the old surveyor should hereafter conclude to die, there would be a new one ready made without troubling the legislature.'"

"Lincoln found his legislative voice with irony. He discovered in his first session that humor went a long way in breaking down walls in partisan legislative bodies." ...Speaker, James Semple, "appointed Lincoln to ten special committees, and he called upon him regularly to speak to key motions." pg 64

I'm sure that Lincoln's first term in public office was a major learning experience for him.

I think you are right Joe. Can you image how scary it would be to walk into that situation?! He hadn't even studied the law yet.

I see that Lincoln was on record as early as 1837 about the evils of slavery. Can we suggest his father had a big influence on this?

I do not think that Lincoln wanted to believe that he was influenced by his father in much of anything..although this is just MHO. Of course, any parent can influence some...good or bad, I suppose. But my feeling was that Lincoln was ambitious for himself and saw his father as being the antithesis of everything he stood for (ambitionless) Maybe that is why he always threw his lot in with his deceased mother as being the person who had been most influential in his life. Even a bad father has influence on the son's psyche if nothing else. I think Lincoln's falling out with his father over time shows as much about Lincoln as it does about the father.

But I don't think we can discount Thomas Lincoln's viewpoints on slavery, and how his family migrated towards antislavery viewpoints. Before Abe was born, the church in their area split-up mainly because of the slavery issue. Thomas made a decision for his family to side with the antislavery faction. Thomas placed his family within antislavery surroundings.

Yes, Joe and I think the rhetoric and the philosophy he was exposed to did stick with Lincoln. But I think that Lincoln wanted to thwart his father's perceived influence and I think would probably have not credited his father for his own antislavery leanings or for much of anything for that matter.

If one does not like a parent, you obviously do not want anyone to think that you learned or were influenced by them. I think that is the point that I was making; not that he wasn't influenced by him.

And further I agree with you and I think a lot of things were a big influence on Abe including Thomas Lincoln's viewpoints on slavery..you and Bryan are certainly correct (MHO).

I guess I do not see Lincoln as being a completely well balanced individual; but in most cases our greatest achievers have all had family and other difficulties to overcome and their lives were not easy.

More about Thomas Lincoln...

I thought White was trying to correct or dampen the harsh first impressions people have gotten of him through his son. "Part of this portrait comes from a son who would say his father 'grew up literally without education,' the very value Abraham Lincoln would come to prize the most." pg 13

It's obvious that Thomas and Abraham did not see eye to eye, but that only accentuates their differing viewpoints on how to succeed. One thought that getting his strong son to help split wood for money to buy more land was the best way, and the other was to educate one's self. I'm sure that just about everyone else in the frontier west was doing the same thing as Thomas. Abe was the odd-ball here, sitting reading books all the time. Not that this takes anything away from how Abraham thought of his father. Their relationship was strained, but Abe, I'm sure, better understood his father when he matured himself.

As far as Thomas is concerned, "the filter should be removed in order to color in a more accurate picture. ...Although he lacked formal education, this was not unusual on the early American frontier. He served in the local militia, on juries, and became an active member of the Baptist Church." pg 13.

"For a long time in American presidential history, the demeaning of Thomas Lincoln became a means to set up a contrast with the accomplishments of his supposedly self made son. The truth, as always, is much more complex." pg 14

Joe..I agree that there are a lot of opinions and opining about Thomas. I still think based upon Lincoln's own actions...he was not enamored with him and maybe was even embarrassed. But I will just reserve judgement until I have read this book and maybe some others.

You have certainly done your homework and have certainly a lot of citations to back up your assessment. Well done.

Good Morning Bentley,

The objective of my last post was not to try to dissuade you of your opinions. I wanted to emphasise White's assertion that history has perhaps given Thomas Lincoln a bad rap. Also, I think White wants to point out that whoever think's they can make any conclusions, history must concede that no one will ever know for sure how Lincoln felt. Surely, their relationship was strained, but we can only surmise that, "the truth... is much more complex."

But, enough of that...

Lincoln won re-election in 1836 easily. He "received the highest number of votes of the seventeen candidates..." and also because of his "growing standing among his colleagues," "the Whigs elected him their floor leader." During this session of the legislature Lincoln helped move the capital of Illinois to Springfield, proudly protested against a resolution condemning abolitionism, and met his future rival, Stephen Douglas. Lincoln also won a third term in the legislature in 1838.

Lincoln moved to Springfield in 1837 and immediately met Joshua Speed, who would develop into one of his closest friends. He also received his law license and had the good fortune to be asked to join, as a junior partner, one of the most respected lawyers in Springfield, that of John Todd Stuart. Lincoln eventually was on horseback, travelling all over the Eighth Judicial Circuit in support of his clients.

Late in 1839 and in 1840, Lincoln took a leading role in organizing the Whigs in Illinois behind their Presidential candidate, William Henry Harrison. He spoke at Whig rallies, debated Steven Douglas among other Democrats, and tried his best to win over votes all over the state. His campaigning essentially brought him to the forefront of the Whig Party in Illinois.

Joe wrote: "Good Morning Bentley,

The objective of my last post was not to try to dissuade you of your opinions. I wanted to emphasise White's assertion that history has perhaps given Thomas Lincoln a bad rap..."

No you did not dissuade me at all. I think that relationships with the same gender parent are always complex.

Hi folks

Well I am still about ten days behind so get to make observations/ comments after I have the benefit of seeing yours.
Just a thought about Thomas is that from what I have read andlearned outside this book I have to agree with the notion that Lincoln was distancing himself from his father. I have a memory that later on in the story of Lincoln this will be reinforced but don't want to be a spoiler and maybe my memory is wrong or White will presnet it differently.

These three chapters however present an opportunity to note things about the developing American frontier as well as developemtns specific to Lincoln.


Think of the sequense of Lincoln's sucess in New Salem. He arrives - a big strong young man in 1831 - just two years after the founding of New Salem so the competition for attention was more limited and probably the total population was very small - was there a note thta Chicago had less than 100 people in this time frame? - and in 1832 when he first ran for office the town was only three years old so he interest in running - his very existence was not too diluted with lots of people. - And these were probably all adventurous people that came here.

Also the similarity here of his Whig party wanting to form a governement to help and empower the people links this in a way to our Roosevelt book and especailly the efforts being put forth by Eleanor on behalf of FDR - just a side note - sorry.

And of course we see Stephen Douglas being similar to Lincoln in that he came out to Illinois on his own to build his own success. And his stature must have been something of a disadvantage - tall men seem to usulaly get reconition and the first time Lincoln went to the legislatture he was one of nine men all over six foot tall.

Looking at Lincoln's strong activities in teh Whig party it almost seems he oculd be using the moral part of it (doing good for others) and the comraderie - campaigning for himself and others - as his sort of substitute for the social aspects that church must have filled for many people at the time. Just an observation of mine.

I sort of have to agree that the exposure of Lincoln to the anti-slavery views of his father would have had some influence but I do think that he indpendently build his anti slavery posture - He wanted to be able to work to achieve things and must have had tremendous difficulty seeing slaves work and get only what their owners wanted to let them have.

Another comment about that society and the attitudes from these chapters is that when New Salem died - granted at a young age - it seems folks just moved on to build something new (personal thought - maybe that shoudl have happened in New Orleans instrad of rebuilding a city below sea level)

A little note about Van Buren's subtreasury system - the economic crissi of 1837 was not able to be fought by the government due to not having a national bank I think and Van Buren's having been Andrew Jackson's guy could not easily try now to reestablish the bank I think.

All good points Vince. I tend to agree that as far as Lincoln's father was concerned..Lincoln was oppositional.

FYI Lincoln fans, I'll be heading over to Springfield next week to visit his home. Looking forward to it.

Terrific..see if you can learn how to post some pics...it is supposed to be easy.

Have a great time. You will have to do a write-up for us.

Would love to see what his home looks like...there is a way to post digital images.

Thanks for your post, Vince. I'll see if I can respond to some of it.

As far as Thomas Lincoln is concerned, I think we are all missing White's point if we form opinions of anything more than "their relationship was strained", or that "we were not dissuaded." White's point was two fold. He suggests that history was possibly too harsh toward Thomas, and that we don't have the whole story. We don't have the whole story... we don't have 1/4 of it, and to recognize that, I think, was what White wanted to convey to us on pages 13 and 14.

I think White was being kind to Thomas But we can be kind too; but somebody trying to get away as much as Lincoln was does speak volumes without White saying anything.

I am sure that Thomas had a difficult time and we should be sympathetic. And nobody has the whole story except for Lincoln and his father. You are right Joe; but some of us have our suspicions (grin).

Bryan wrote: "FYI Lincoln fans, I'll be heading over to Springfield next week to visit his home. Looking forward to it."

Yes, I also would like to see your pictures as well. Keep us posted.

Bryan,

How was Lincoln's home; you said that you were visiting Springfield? (message 27)

Bentley

Hi Bentley:

It was fun. It was not crowded and the weather was good. I will try to post pictures soon. It was your typical upper-middle class house with all the Victorian trimmings. I also walked around the 4 blocks the NPS has restored, so you get an idea of how the neighborhood felt.

Mary had her own bedroom to dress in and it was a place to go when she had her migraines. (I didn't know she suffered from them.)

I did not have time to go through the Lincoln Museum and Library (except the large gift shop), but that will be for another visit.

So, I'm pleased to be reading the Linclon bio when I did this.

I picked up the book:
by Jean H. Baker

Bryan wrote: "Hi Bentley:

It was fun. It was not crowded and the weather was good. I will try to post pictures soon. It was your typical upper-middle class house with all the Victorian trimmings. I also wal..."

That's great to hear you had a good time, Bryan. I'd be curious to see your pictures as well.

Bryan wrote: "Hi Bentley:

It was fun. It was not crowded and the weather was good. I will try to post pictures soon. It was your typical upper-middle class house with all the Victorian trimmings. I also wal..."

That sounds like a great trip..too bad you did not have time to go through the Musuem and library. Would love to see the photos..I also had no inclination that Mary had migraines and a separate bedroom (that might have been the practice in those days) - although Eleanor and FDR certainly had theirs.

Thanks for posting the book on Mary; I had wondered how the trip went.

Joe wrote: "But I don't think we can discount Thomas Lincoln's viewpoints on slavery, and how his family migrated towards antislavery viewpoints. Before Abe was born, the church in their area split-up mainly b..."

Don't you think it was the ejectment suit which made the decision for them.

At the beginning of chapter four, it seems to me that because of his father and his father's standing in Abe's eyes...he had somewhat of an inferiority complex which he worked hard to overcome..he wanted to be viewed by others as being worthy. To even feel that way in the first place, you would have had to think that you weren't. White also mentions that he shows outward respect for his father and step mother visiting them (they had moved again) when he came back from his second trip to New Orleans). So they were on speaking and on visiting terms and not totally estranged.

A New Salem Virtual Tour:

http://www.lincolnsnewsalem.com/

White said that it was during this period that it was here that Lincoln was finally able to separate from his father. Obviously a goal that Lincoln had for a very long time.

It was also interesting that the New Salem site indicated that Denton's store only lasted about a year and then he was off:

"Offutt first employed Abraham Lincoln in the spring of 1831 to take his goods by flatboat from Springfield to New Orleans. Due to a delay in crossing the milldam, Offutt and Lincoln first visited New Salem. On July 8, 1831, Offutt was licensed to retail at New Salem. It was here that Lincoln received his first exposure to the business of merchandising. Within a year, Offutt's enterprise had failed. He left New Salem for Kentucky to help his brother raise horses."

It did not seem that a lot of these folks stayed put much.

This is what the New Salem state historic site said about Lincoln's stay here:

Lincoln At New Salem

"Lincoln's New Salem State Historic Site, about 2 miles South of Petersburg and about 20 miles Northwest of Springfield, is a reconstruction of the village where Abraham Lincoln spent his early adulthood.

The six years Lincoln spent in New Salem formed a turning point in his career.

Although he never owned a home here, Lincoln was engaged in a variety of activities while he was at New Salem.

He clerked in a store, split rails, enlisted in the Black Hawk War, served as postmaster and deputy surveyor, failed in business, and was elected to the Illinois General Assembly in 1834 and 1836 after an unsuccessful try in 1832. "

Historic records are now disputing the above. See message 38.

It looks like Abe owned property in New Salem:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creati...

and this indicates that there is more to be discovered:


http://showcase.netins.net/web/creati...

AL on line:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creati...

For those of you interested in tracking Lincoln:

Don Davenport

Ralph Gary

Other books about this area and time period:

Robert Mazrim

Lincoln's New Salem by Benjamin P. Thomas

The Shadows Rise Abraham Lincoln and the Ann Rutledge Legend by John Walsh

I love all of the little tidbits that White throws in as he tells his story:

For example - Illinois was settled from South to North.

What was most interesting and hard to fathom now; but in 1831 - the population of Chicago was 60!!!

Folks liked to settle along the rivers (easy access to water and timber) and Chicago was settled by the mouth of the Chicago River on the banks of Lake Michigan.

Nobody at the time thought they could cultivate below the sea of grass (the Prairie grasses); but rich soil lay beneath.

When Lincoln embarked on his New Salem experience he was also leaving behind farming which had been the occupation of his forebears.

Bentley wrote: "Don't you think it was the ejectment suit which made the decision for them. "

On page 18, White explains that the Lincoln family church broke up because of disagreements about slavery just before Abe was born. The point being, there was allot of slavery tensions, and probably quite prevalent away from church, and Thomas chose sides for his family. That also points out quite well that Abe grew up in an area embedded with enormous slavery tensions. Given the environment and his father's opinions of them, Thomas and the environment he lived in had a lot to do with Abe's viewpoint on slavery.

About your second paragraph, yes, that's quite possible.

Yes, I read that about the church itself; but what I was focusing on was their ejectment suit which forced them to leave Kentucky..(same for the Sparrows).

Thomas may have done all that you say; but he would just have joined another church as he did later in Indiana. Remember he had gotten some letter to show the new Baptist church that he had been a member in good standing and/or a church going man so all was not bleak in terms of how he left his church or they left him. Granted Thomas must have spoken about the church and the congregation's anguish over these issues. We also do not know for sure what influenced young Abe in terms of that time period which regarding that particular church was before Abe was born. But it could have played a role.

Also do not dispute that in Kentucky there may have been disputes regarding slavery..I think in a previous post somewhere I noted that in agreement.

What I am indicating is that the reason they left was because of the ejectment suit not the church; although who knows they may have also been looking for a group of like minded churchgoers in a new location that they could be friends and a community with. Maybe they missed the church that they had belonged to before Abe was born or they attended some other church in the meantime before their move to Indiana.

The church may have been a contributing factor in terms of Thomas's view on slavery which he could have passed on to his son later on in life; but the ejectment suit sealed the move.

I agree the above is quite possible too; as are the other hypotheses (smile).

Lincoln's First Political Announcement:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creati...

Abraham Lincoln and the Black Hawk War;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_...

The New Salem Debating Society: (this is where Lincoln started to hone his debating skills on a variety of tough subjects including slavery, etc.)

http://www.lib.niu.edu/1998/ihy980234...

This is a pretty interesting book starting on page 18 which discusses the New Salem debating Society.

One other interesting tidbit in this book was how Lincoln loved Clay just like his father did and Lincoln's early attitudes on what to do with slaves and slavery is exactly that of Clays.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hY3-...


Stephen B. Oates

Joe wrote: "In March of 1832, Lincoln, for the first time, tries to enter public office by announcing in the Sangamo Journal his wishes to be a candidate for the state legislature. The complete text of his ann..."

Yes, I was amazed at how well he did in his own district...277 out of 300 votes....that made him feel quite proud as it should have.

I think constantly he worried about being worthy and had these feelings of low self esteem...probably because of his upbringing and of his father's standing. He was worthy but of course he had to prove it to himself too. I think Rutledge and Allen helped him out tremendously. White also stated in this chapter that Lincoln's curiosity and love of reading and learning enlarged the gulf between father and son which was already there to begin with.

When Abe first worked for Denton he was making only $15.00 a month and sleeping on a shared cot in the back room of the store! He was quite ingenious and made $40.00 for his boat excursion; $125.00 for his military service.

On the religious issue, White states that Lincoln did not have much use for the Camp Meetings that took place in New Salem and they did not count Lincoln in attendance; because Lincoln felt that these meetings were too emotional.

As he got better known he actually stayed and lived in a number of different places in New Salem as a boarder in exchange for odd jobs, etc.

Bentley wrote: "What I am indicating is that the reason they left was because of the ejectment suit not the church; although who knows they may have also been looking for a group of like minded churchgoers in a new location that they could be friends and a community with. Maybe they missed the church that they had belonged to before Abe was born or they attended some other church in the meantime before their move to Indiana."

Yes, I'm familiar with the time your talking about, but when Thomas decided to change churches, White mentioned that the new church was only 3 miles away, so I don't think they needed to move to change churches. I got the impression that when they did eventually decide to move, they did so because of the ejectment suit, like you said. But, I separated the two incidents as being not related to each other because they happened at different times.

But I'll read it again later tonight to verify. Maybe I overlooked something.

Joe wrote: "While reading a bit more into Lincoln's first attempt at public office from Burlingame's Abraham Lincoln A Life, I learned that James Rutledge, an owner of an inn in New Salem where..."


I don't know..it could be that they were playing with him as a diversion but for some reason...I think he was helped by all of them including Rutledge and Allen (after researching further). White indicates that this experience was more on the positive side (at least in this chapter he does). Another reason Lincoln would have gravitated to Rutledge was because he owned a small library of books. This also would have been very attractive to Lincoln.

Bentley wrote: "Another reason Lincoln would have gravitated to Rutledge was because he owned a small library of books. This also would have been very attractive to Lincoln."

Good point.

Joe wrote: "Bentley wrote: "What I am indicating is that the reason they left was because of the ejectment suit not the church; although who knows they may have also been looking for a group of like minded chu..."

The Baptist church they belonged to before Abe was born was the church that was blown apart by dissension. They may have gone to another after that; but they left because of the ejectment suit. When looking over the White text...he did not mention the ejectment suit until later when talking about the Sparrows and how both Thomas Lincoln and the Sparrows had to both leave because of these same circumstances.

I wonder in a way after thinking about it whether Thomas was showing the same pride (as Lincoln, his son, often did)...when he went back to ask Sarah to marry him (after his first wife died). He also paid her debts to seal the deal. It would then appear to his old compatriots that he indeed had done better and was able now to pay his bills or that of his future spouse.

I think Lincoln had more of his father's wherewithal than he would ever want to admit. Too bad about the gulf over the books and education..maybe Abe's book learning and school made Thomas feel even more inferior to his son and he did not want Lincoln to become uppity. You never know. He may have felt he was losing his son to books and he at his advanced age (life had passed him by) could not do anything about it.

Bentley wrote: "When Abe first worked for Denton he was making only $15.00 a month and sleeping on a shared cot in the back room of the store!"

I got the impression that that sort of thing was common back then. I'm always reading about two people sharing the same bed just because there just weren't enough beds available. It truly was a different time back then.

It was..can you imagine that going on today...Uproar. I think they did this also to stay warm (which would make sense) - no forced hot air or central heating then. Plus furniture was not that readily available unless they made it themselves.