The History Book Club discussion

Folks, Elizabeth has started reading The Agony and the Ecstasy; so for those folks who want to discuss that book; I have opened up a thread for that purpose.

Elizabeth, feel free to post on that book here.

by Irving Stone

FREE ON LINE COPY:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9990281/The...

For those of you who don't know, The Agony and the Ecstasy is Irving Stone's biographical novel of the life of Michelangelo.

Personally, I know very little about Michelangelo going into this book. I know he painted a lot of things and he sculpted the famous "David" statue. I have a vague memory of my mother watching the Charlton Heston movie of "The Agony and the Ecstasy." All I remember is Michelangelo on his back, painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican, being bugged by whoever the church guy was (sorry about my memory) about when it would be finished. I remember how funny it was when they got to the point that the church guy would mouth, "When will you be done?" And Michelangelo would mouth back, "When I'm finished!" I'm hoping that reading the book will fill in the obvious gaps in my memory.

In the frontpiece of my copy of the book, it says that Irving Stone spent six years researching and writing this book. According to wikipedia, Stone lived in Italy for years and even apprenticed himself to a marble sculptor. In addition, Stone had all 495 surviving letters written by Michelangelo translated into English and published as a book I, Michelangelo, Sculptor. This translation was never before done. In a note at the end of my copy, Stone acknowledges debts to many scholars of the Renaissance field, those who let him study quarries first hand, and Charles de Tolnay "whose monumental five volumes constitute the definitive art history on Michelangelo's work." Sounds like this historical fiction was better researched than many non-fiction books.

A number of friends and people I respect have recommended this book, and it has finally made its way to the top of my "to-read" list. So here goes!

I, Michelangelo, Sculptor

What a great intro Elizabeth and I will try to join you going at a snail's pace but who is rushing.

I hope others buddy up and join you along the way.

Now where is that book. I know I have had it on the book shelf for a long time too.

Bentley

Those books do like to hide, sometimes. :)

I should mention that Michelangelo lived from 1475-1564. This book would be of interest to anyone who wants to know more about Michelangelo, great art (including painting, fresco, sculpture, architecture), Italian life in the 16C, and more.

The Agony and the Ecstasy is not divided up into chapters of a length we see in most books. Overall, it is a series of eleven "Books" averaging about 80 pages long each. Each "book" contains numbered sections that one might call chapters, but they are mostly 3-4 pages long each, so it is hard for me to think of them as chapters. Perhaps I will refer to them as subsections.

As I read, I will leave some comments and thoughts in this thread. I will also begin each comment with the internal "Book" that is referenced, so if you are reading along later and don't want spoilers, you can easily determine which you'd like to read. Hope this works for everyone.

That sounds great..just mention the subsections..with everything else I am reading I might be that slow (smile)

The first "book", titled The Studio:

I recommend reading a big of background about frescos and how they are painted. A general overview can be found on wikipedia: Fresco.

This "book" begins with Michelangelo at the age of 13. He loves art, is constantly sketching, but his father does not want that for his son. We learn about Michelangelo's family background and current situation. Michelangelo's friend helps him become an apprentice of the great artist Ghirlandaio. (See Ghirlandaio for more information on him.)

Although beginning his apprenticeship a couple of years late, Michelangelo shows great promise, dedication, and love of art. However, we see his real love is sculpture. It is interesting to see his disdain for fresco, as compared with sculpture, knowing that Michelangelo is destine to be more well known (I think) in our day for the Sistine Chapel frescoed ceiling than for his magnificent "David" sculpture.

Michelangelo worries that he will never learn the secrets of great sculpture because all the sculptures have died.

Thanks for posting this section, Bentley.
And that book does look really good, Elizabeth. I'll see if I can find a copy this weekend.

Elizabeth...I found a copy on line so for those folks who would like the ebook....here it is. In the meantime, I will continue looking but I can start with this copy.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9990281/The...

I love the fact that he has such disdain for his own face and says: "Too bad a face can't be redrawn before it is delivered, like plans for the facade of the Duomo."

He did not like his face: "My head is out of rule, with the forehead overweighing my mouth and chin. Someone should have used a plumb line."

He seems so enamored with sculpture and called it the greatest art.

Donatello's St. Mark (mentioned on page 8 - Michelangelo loved this piece)

http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas...

The Orsanmichele

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...

His friend Granacci did not seem to agree with him. I wondered if he did not agree with his friend because he did not know of Michelangelo's secret love for sculpture and felt left out...or do you think he really disagreed with him for another reason (maybe he thought that Michelangelo was a better painter??)

Well I got through the first subsection! But I have other obligations elsewhere so this will be slow for me.

However, so far it seems like a great read.

I think this is a picture done of Michelangelo but of course he is much older:

http://www.glbtq.com/literature/miche...

PAGE 9 - BOOK ONE - SUBSECTION TWO

Here is a photo of the fresco by Domenico Ghirlandaio: (mentioned on page 9)

In the Church of Ognissanti in Florence, Italy -

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/t...

Here is the Calling of the First Apostles (Sistine Chapel) - page 9 - 1481

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html...

I love the line of page nine when Michelangelo meets Ghirlandaio for the first time and they both size each other up: "Michelangelo felt himself being spitted by a pair of eyes reputed to be able to see and record more with one thrust than any artist in Italy." "But the boy too used his eyes as if they were silver point pens".

It was very telling about the customs in those days for the first question that Ghirlandaio wanted to know was basically about what kind of family that Michelangelo came from as if this was how they were all judged. Your family name and reputation of your father.

It was astonishing that Michelangelo, a boy, stood up to the great and respected elder artist...I wonder how much of this is true? But a good story nonetheless.

I love the references to art.

I am not sure what the Doctors and Apothecaries Guild agreements had to do with apprenticing Michelangelo. Does anybody else know?

Regarding the Tornabuoni chapel - this was named after a banker - the chapel had formerly been named Sassetti (another banker) - I have attached the photo of the chapel and Ghirlandaio's work: (mentioned as the project he wanted Michelangelo to help him work on)

http://www.wga.hu/html/g/ghirland/dom...

I will cover on my own a subsection a day..it will soon add up, I imagine.

Other sources:

Wikipedia -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domenico...

Ognissanti, Florence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_o...

Tornabuoni Chapel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornabuo...

Complete Works: Domenico Ghirlandaio

http://www.domenico-ghirlandaio.org/

http://www.aiwaz.net/gallery/ghirland...

Cappella Sassetti: (1482-1485)

http://www.paradoxplace.com/Perspecti...

Wow, Bentley, it may only take you 5 minutes to read the short selection, but it must take much longer to make all these comments and look up all those references! Thanks!

On "Book 1" subsection 1:

Yes, isn't it interesting that he looks at his own face as a work of art, and critiques it as poorly done. Michelangelo is truly focused on art in all aspects of his life!

And yes, Granacci doesn't agree with Michelangelo. That is one of the things I like about this friendship, that they don't have to agree on everything, even things that are so important to Michelangelo. There is more later in the book about what is the greatest type of art, so I'll wait to discuss more then.

Notice that Michelangelo had concealed his love for sculpture until the moment when he will (hopefully) finally be apprenticed. It sounds like the excitement of the moment caused him to reveal more than he, perhaps, had intended.

"Book 1" subsection 2:

Thanks for all the pictures, Bentley. It really helps to be able to see what is being described in the book. I usually don't bother looking things up, I guess mostly because I read while waiting for kids to finish lunch, or waiting in the car while my son has his piano lesson, etc., so there is seldom a computer handy. :)

With historical fiction, I always wish to know what parts are true and what parts made up. I read a historical fiction series once where after the 2nd book the author put notes at the end of each chapter summarizing the facts and fictions. Spoiled me.

I also find it interesting that Granacci thinks Michelangelo is a great artist already, yet when asked if he can draw, Michelangelo says, "I have the capacity to learn." Now-a-days we would think this is the mark of humility, but not much later Ghirlandaio sarcastically says "Whatever else you may lack for, it isn't modesty." Despite his great talent, Michelangelo had a lot to learn about art. And despite his ability to negotiate like that, he had a lot to learn about dealing with other people. I think his greatest bargaining tool was his natural artistic talent, not any cleverness of word.

On your question about the guild, I found this wikipedia very informative: Guilds of Florence. Because they bought their paints from the apotecaries, painters were in the medical guild. Sculptors were in the Masters of Stone and Wood guild. Interestingly, the Stone and Wood guild was a lesser guild than the medical guild--another evidence of how sculpture is "not the greatest art" to many. The guilds controlled all aspects of the trades involved, including the apprenticeship of youth, prices, competition, etc.

I was talking with a friend about this book, and they commented on the meaning of the title. The Agony and the Ecstasy conveys the contrast between the agony of having to paint a ceiling upside down with the ecstasy of how it looked when it was finished.

I just thought I would throw that in.
I'm off to my favorite used bookstore to see if they have a copy. Wish me luck.

Good luck, Joe!

I think there will be many applications of the title in addition to the painting of The Ceiling. (Do you think the Sistine Chapel has the most famous ceiling of all time?) I can see agony and ecstasy in the sculpting, as well as in the artistic training. It will be interesting to think on that as we read.

I found what looks like a first edition hardcover, with a pretty good dust jacket, and cheep! If anyone ever gets close to Niantic, CT you have to stop by the best used book store I have ever seen, The Book Barn.

I'm gonna try to read the first chapter or subsection when I get home. And thank-you Elizabeth for expanding the meaning of the title.

I'm jealous, Joe. I wish I had even a decent used book place close by. There was a good one, The Book Cellar, that my husband's family frequented for many years. But I only got to go once after we moved here before it had to close it's doors. Sniff.

Glad you found a great copy. We should maybe compare page numbers to see how things line up. Here's the page numbers I have for the start of each of the books:

The Studio, page 7
The Sculpture Garden, page 63
The Palace, page 104
The Flight, page 188
The City, page 278
The Giant, page 360
The Pope, page 456
The Medici, page 550
The War, page 613
Love, page 668
The Dome, page 715

I finally got home after much meandering...

Here is how my page numbers line up:

The Studio, page 11
The Sculpture Garden, page 59
The Palace, page 95
The Flight, page 167
The City, page 243
The Giant, page 313
The Pope, page 393
The Medici, page 473
The War, page 527
Love, page 575
The Dome, page 615

Looks like your copy gets more on a page than mine. Makes sense, since I have a paperback. Looks like it will be easier to just go with Book and subsection numbers rather than page numbers. At least the subsections are pretty short.

I've gotten into Book 3, but now I'm going to pause for a couple of days to do my No Ordinary Time and Federalist reading. First I'm going to post some questions that I think would be fun to discuss when you (Joe and Bentley and whoever else wants to) get there.

Questions to think about and discuss in Book 1: The Studio.

What do you think of the apprentice system? Does it work? Does it produce the best artists?

Michelangelo has several opportunities to discuss the virtue of sculpture versus other types of art. What do you think of his arguments and the arguments of others?

Questions to think about and discuss in Book 2: The Sculpture Garden.

Now that we've seen the apprentice system twice, has your opinions changed? Do you think Ghirlandaio or Bertoldo is a better master in general? Specifically for Michelangelo?

What do you think of how Michelangelo is treated? Is it best for him to be held back from stone?

Michelangelo's father is not impressed with his son's ambitions because he receives neither praise nor money for his work. Is this a fair assessment? It would be easy to judge Lodovico by today's standards as a bad parent. By the Renaissance standards, how do you think he would rate?

Michelangelo seems to truly have a one-track mind that sculpture is everything. Yet, knowing that he later did the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, what do you think changed his views and broadened his mind?

Anyone who has ever read a romance novel can see love brewing when Contessina visits the garden. Do you think anything will come of it? Or will something get in the way, such as Michelangelo's one-track mind or the difference in social standing?

Now we see Granacci's position a little better. He seems to be a solid friend for Michelangelo. Is this friendship deserved? What do you think now of the argument of sculpture versus fresco?

Elizabeth S wrote: "Wow, Bentley, it may only take you 5 minutes to read the short selection, but it must take much longer to make all these comments and look up all those references! Thanks!

On "Book 1" subsection ..."

True..it was like Ghirlandaio and Michelangelo were having a little dance in terms of their negotiation. However, Michelangelo had a very pure sense of modesty which Ghirlandaio did not pick up. M was just being truthful and was not resorting to artifice.

I am going to be the slow poke here but hey I am in no rush and I have a lot of others things going on. But I like Irving Stone's style and I will try to make myself not believe everything Stone is saying. That is why I am really such a non fiction purist. I love mysteries and thrillers too; but those I know are a big fake. So I just enjoy them for what they are.

I am not sure I understand how the apprentice system works...I know that I asked those questions about the forms that had to be signed. I cannot help out there. Michelangelo's father was a good Dad but he like many other parents wanted his son to be able to support himself and a family. Many parents even today would cringe if they heard their son wanted to be an artist for real.

My grandmother was best friends with Frank Stella's father (same name) who was a gynecologist/obstetrician (in fact her own and other members of my family). He was heart broken that his son either did not become a doctor like he was or become a lawyer. It was quite a rift. Then as Stella proved himself and became world famous...his father finally came around and was even more proud of his son than anybody else ever could be. I understand where Frank Stella was coming from. He loved his son so much that he wanted to help him develop a successful life...his son did...but it was not in Frank Stella's image at first. There has been a lot written now about their relationship..and Dr. Stella (a wonderful man has since passed on).

Granacci seems like a remarkable friend to M...I will have to read more tomorrow.

No hurry, Bentley, we'll just take it as it comes. You are always patient with the rest of us, my turn to be patient with you!

I'll see what I can find about the apprentice system to help you with it. I've read a lot of fantasy books that use versions of the system. Plus my 3rd grader just finished a Medieval Times unit in school where they learned about apprentices. Maybe I'll have him give me an overview of it! :)

I think that to some extent you are right about M's father, he wanted what was best for his son. However, in those days I think people in general were what we would call "closed minded." People didn't like seeing their children go in different directions because they didn't understand anything but what they knew, and they didn't value what they didn't understand. In our day, our society values being open minded, and we still have parents refusing to see the possibilities for their children. In those days, I think society valued children following in their parents' footsteps. Given the limitations on education, transportation, and communication, that value makes some sense. If the son of the village blacksmith wanted to be a farmer, who would be the next village blacksmith? Of course parents would seem even more close-minded to us.

Hey 3rd graders are really smart these days...you should have him join the history club (with your supervision of course). He may be able to teach all of us a few things about Medieval Times (smile).

I shudder when I think about it...but I think I am just like Frank Stella's father...I would question too what my children's ambitions were or weren't and would probably try to steer them in a desired direction..terrible huh?

This was an excerpt describing Stella and his father's relationship...it could have been talking about Michelangelo and his father or even my own views:

Stella was born in 1936 in Malden, Massachusetts, to first-generation American parents (his paternal grandparents were Sicilian and his maternal, Calabrian). His father, Frank, was a gynecologist in Malden, who worked his way through medical school by painting department store interiors. He viewed painting as an avocation, not a career. He sent his son, Frank, the eldest of three children, to Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts, for a good education that would prepare him for a respectable profession. There, in a studio art program that provided students with unlimited supplies of materials and great freedom to experiment, Frank began to paint. His father (with whom he remained close until his death in 1979) encouraged him to go to the college of his choice, but said the only three he would pay for were Harvard, Yale or Princeton. Stella chose Princeton for its proximity to the New York post-Abstract Expressionist art scene.

Book One - Subsection 3

Michelangelo certainly seemed to gravitate to the family of stonecutters and knew early on that he liked to work with his hands. His father's main occupation was counting the dwindling family fortune and not spending any money if he could help it. His father seemed to have an obsession with money.

Book One - Subsection 4

We learn that his father had signed him up with the Wool Guild so that he would become a merchant. Michelangelo's father thinks that it is beneath his family's name to work with their hands and that Michelangelo will bring dishonor to the family, Also, this was the favorite of his 5 sons; so it must have been especially difficult to learn about M's dreams. I wonder why if the family belonged to the Money Changers Guild why they were not doing that.

Art is like washing an ass's head with lye was his father's assessment. And then the final insult..this must be the result of his mother's side of the family! I do not think he was treated poorly by his family..they were really trying to look out for his best interests and also the family's.

Of course, I still have to remind myself that this is a book of fiction (lol).

Potential Spoiler - so I would not watch OR READ the text below until after finishing the book:

PBS SPECIAL:

Synopsis:

More than five centuries ago, Michelangelo Buonarroti was the darling of the Catholic Church. The Papacy commissioned him to create many of its most important pieces, including the frescoes of the Sistine Chapel.

He spent his life glorifying the Church, etching Catholic ideals into masterpieces that defined religion for the masses. Yet when he died, his body was secretly shepherded off to Florence, and the Church was denied the opportunity to honor him with a grand funeral in Rome.

Historians have long wondered about the mysterious circumstances surrounding his death, but now, art historian Antonio Forcellino believes he has pieced together evidence of a deep rift between the Church and the esteemed artist.

The cause: Michelangelo’s belief in Protestant ideals, and his involvement with a clandestine fellowship trying to put an end to the decadence and corruption of the Clergy and reform the Church from within.

THIRTEEN’s Secrets of the Dead: Michelangelo Revealed premieres nationally, Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 8 p.m. (ET) on PBS (check local listings). The film deconstructs the puzzling discrepancies between the sculptures Michelangelo created and the way he described them, revealing an intricate effort to carve his own beliefs into stone, while protecting himself from the wrath of a powerful Cardinal who viewed him as a heretic. Actor Liev Schreiber (CSI, upcoming X-Men Origins: Wolverine) narrates.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/episo...

The following works by art historians and others (who are interviewed in this documentary) are non-fiction.

Antonio Forcellino [image error]

Thomas F. Mayer

Alexander Nagel

Franciscan Basilica of Santa Croce - where Michelangelo is buried:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...

Bentley wrote: "Book One - Subsection 3

Michelangelo certainly seemed to gravitate to the family of stonecutters and knew early on that he liked to work with his hands. His father's main occupation was counting ..."

It is funny to me that the wool guild isn't "working with your hands." Yes, a merchant sells goods rather than making them, but he does do a lot of moving, lifting, etc. It seems that an artist would spend more time sitting. But my perspective is from my comparatively sedentary lifestyle. It is hard for me to think of art as work, though reading this book has helped.

I, too, like the phrase that something "is like washing an ass's head with lye... you loose both the effort and the lye." I think I'm going to look for a way to work that into a conversation in the next few days. :)

I still cannot figure out these guilds.

Do love that quote though.

Book One - Subsection 5

Michelangelo learned a good lesson; but paid dearly in the process. I think his pride does get in the way of his good sense.

Basilica of Santa Maria Novella:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica...

In reading further, I think Michelangelo is shooting himself in the foot over his sculpture fixation. Especially in his talk with the other apprentices. Granacci seems older and wiser and more street smart than M.

Very disappointed in Michelangelo; pretty much stealing his master's portfolio pictures and substituting them for his own drawings. What is he thinking? If G is worth his salt and I think he might be...then we will just have to wait for the other shoe to drop and the gig will be up for M.

I think Michelangelo is a bit arrogant and a bit impressed with himself.

Book One - Subsection 12

Nothing else needed to be said: "Thank you for returning my drawings. I hope they have been helpful."

Elizabeth, I have completed Book One. A very good story so far.

Elizabeth S wrote: ""Book 1" subsection 2:

Thanks for all the pictures, Bentley. It really helps to be able to see what is being described in the book. I usually don't bother looking things up, I guess mostly becau..."

Elizabeth, I just saw your post about the guilds. Fascinating. Painters were in the same group as doctors and pharmacists because they mixed pigments which I guess they purchased from the apothecary. It looks as if you could be doomed to one calling whether you liked it or not for a a certain time period if your family was so inclined. Almost a caste system.

Will you be having any discussion questions on Book Two?

Bentley wrote: "Will you be having any discussion questions on Book Two? "

I posted some thoughts earlier. See message 21.

I think you are right that it was almost a caste system. In our day, with increased communications and traveling ease, I think it is easier to have an open mind to our kids choosing different paths than we did. But like you said earlier, we all still have expectations and it is hard to see kids moving in a different direction. For instance, I really expect my kids to go to college. Because there are so many options in college, it doesn't feel closed-minded to me. But if one of them wants to go in a completely different direction, I would really have to swallow hard.

Michelangelo seems to really be one-track-mind on the sculpture in the first several books. I'm still near the beginning of Book 3, and I'm trying to think what will cause him to change enough to do the Sistine Chapel. It seems either he will be forced by necessity, or something will broaden his mind to the value of frescoe as well as sculpture. Or maybe he will decide he needs a break from sculpture? He doesn't seem to have the religious fervor to want to do it just for The Church or his faith, but maybe that will change. Read further to find out, I guess!

I think at the end of Book One you see some of the arguments coming from Granacci and Mainardi. Michelangelo listens but is unable to compromise. He has to begrudgingly agree with Mainardi about the cost of stone and that paint is cheap and commissions abundant for painting. In the frescoes, the painter must know what the final color will look like while working with the fresh plaster. Granacci: "Painting and sculpture have the same parents; they are sister arts."

But M does not seem to be that convinced.

BTW: thanks for pointing out where the Book Two questions were. It is hard finding everything when the discussion is on one thread.

FICTION VS NON-FICTION:

I have to keep reminding myself that this is fiction; and that some parts just are made up for the novel. I can see that I feel more comfortable reading non fiction; especially about famous individuals; yet much of what Stone is presenting has been researched; so there is that blend.

REGARDING EXPECTATIONS:

I am wondering now that everyone expects to go to college; that if you do not have a degree...that this would be a pretty big impediment for folks (in this day and age).

REGARDING RELIGION:

He says he is a believer when he is working and checking out his mother's church that she attended (as a young woman); so maybe his spirituality is deeper than we think.

I thought this was an interesting article:

http://www.reidsguides.com/destinatio...

Also, there is a doctor who believes that when God is creating Adam that he is actually giving him intellect and that is a brain that is behind God. It actually does look like that; but everybody will have their interpretaton.

Here are some others:

http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/t...

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/10/art...

BOOK TWO - SUBSECTION ONE

I love Michelangelo's fathers response: "One never knows the end of the piece of bad luck, it has more turns than a snake."

Well with a stroke of luck or bad luck as M's father puts it...he is getting his wish -
( I think sometimes I believe the maxim...be careful what you wish for)

I think I would feel the same way Lodovico feels.

Money wise..it sounds like a worse deal than what he had.

Well I finished Book Two..and there is such a difference between M and his father. M thinks grandly and his father thinks small.

Bertoldo is a better teacher and has the time to invest in his apprentices...with Ghirlandaio...he was so busy with commissions..there was little time to teach.

I think M has learned more than he knows from G. I think that Bertoldo will have a lasting impression on the young M.

I am not impressed with how Michelangelo was treated and still do not understand the true motivation except of course what Lorenzo explained. It seemed a little cruel.

Granacci is Granacci and he has always had more polished ways of getting things done. I think he is a true friend of M's; I am not sure that anything will come out of the M's love interest.

Bentley wrote: "BOOK TWO - SUBSECTION ONE

I love Michelangelo's fathers response: "One never knows the end of the piece of bad luck, it has more turns than a snake."

Well with a stroke of luck or bad luck as M's..."

Isn't it interesting that M's father has all these cool little maxims. I wonder if they are accurate from the period, or if Stone made them up? Once again, wishing for notes delineating the historical from the fiction!

I suspect that Stone made them up. That is why I love non fiction; but it is a good story nonetheless and I think the basic gist of the story is probably more or less the way it was. I came across something recently that said that Michelangelo actually worked on cadavers to understand how the body was put together so that he would be a better sculptor. Sounds gruesome.

I am just reading this more or less as a good story which may have some historical significance.

Just finished subsection 11 in Book 3.

I've decided to go look at each piece of art after M finishes it. In looking at the Madonna M finished in subsection 8, I can see Stone's descriptions. The cross is evident, but not overpowering. I see how the focus is on the mother, rather than the child. I also see the critique of too much drapery. I don't know how much of what Stone wrote is from Stone's research in M's letters and how much from Stone's mind, but it sure fits the art. I like it.

About the Torrigiani episode in subsection 9. It is easy for me to think M should have done this or that differently, forgetting that he was only 15-16 years old. How experienced should one be in handling difficult people at that age? T seems to be a bully to me, he clearly picked the fight. (M should have used the Bully-Backpack rules that they teach the kids in elementary school around here. He he.) Although I don't think T had any understanding of how much art meant to M, so perhaps he did not realize how deeply stinging his words were to Michelangelo.

M's father is really growing on me, in the wrong direction. He just looks at M as a source of revenue, not really his son. "Broke your nose? Where's the money?" You get a real understanding of how everyone views Michelangelo when you compare how they react to his injury.

I find it so interesting to read about the development of a artistic piece, of the decisions of what to put where, or even just what piece of the story to depict. It all says a lot, even if the viewer is unaware of the choices involved.

Bentley wrote: "Well I finished Book Two..and there is such a difference between M and his father. M thinks grandly and his father thinks small.

Bertoldo is a better teacher and has the time to invest in his app..."

I agree, Bentley, on your impressions of Michelangelo's father and his teachers. I think Ghirlandaio could have been a better teacher, if that is where he had spent his time.

I am not impressed with how Michelangelo was treated and still do not understand the true motivation except of course what Lorenzo explained. It seemed a little cruel.

The only direct explanation we get in the book is that they wanted to push M to see if he really "wanted" to be a sculptor. I think some of it, though, was the higher expectations for someone with great talent. We saw it both in M's training with Ghir. and with Bertoldo. With art, there is great value in learning the basics (sketching, proportions, shading) before adding the complexities (color, texture, depth). With someone who has no great talent, you don't need to hold as rigidly to the schedule, so they may seem to progress faster. But with someone like M, you want to give them that solid grounding in the basics, to train their eye and mind carefully, before moving on to the next level. In all the books I read, it seems that is never explained to the apprentice, probably because it removes the mystery for the reader. Or if it is explained, the apprentice rebels and is impatient and doesn't want to wait to move on to color or carving or whatever it may be.

Granacci is Granacci and he has always had more polished ways of getting things done. I think he is a true friend of M's.

Agreed. In many ways he is a voice of reason, someone who understands both M and the world and can translate back and forth. There are a few situations where he seems wise beyond his years, as Michelangelo is talented beyond his years. I think "polished" is very descriptive.

I like your explanations...exceptional. Granacci to me seems more naturally aristocratic (and I mean that in a nice way).

Just finished Book 3.

Wow, the plot thickens at the end of the book. No longer is it just the story of a budding artist, but we see politics rearing its ugly head. Do the good guys win? Well, depends on who you think the good guys are.

Michelangelo finishes the Battle of the Centaurs. This one is in "high relief", meaning it is comes out more from the block of stone. Wikipedia shows a picture of the work, plus two short paragraphs about it here. This is a harder piece for me to like, because of the strife in it. But that is what M wanted to convey, I think. Stone again describes the art well, I think, "balancing the intertwined arms, torsos, legs, heads and stones as they would tumble backward in the final marble." And "the half-released forms appearing to be freestanding, each figure radiating its own force." (All quotations in this paragraph from book 3, subsection 11.)

From the wikipedia, it sounds like the Centaurs was unfinished, although Stone gives us a (surely fictional) explanation for that. Stone also is a master plot sculptor. At the same time Michelangelo is carving this intertwining block of strife and death, the strife in the city rises and death is in the air. Talented writing.

What do other people think of the art?

What of Contessina's arranged marriage? Really, there weren't any other options in those days, were there.

How great of a man was Lorenzo? Some possible faults are hinted at, perhaps to make sure we know he wasn't perfect. Yet he filled a real need that Michelangelo had at the time. What do you think of passing the reins on to Piero? Again, not really an option in those days, was there.

In Michelangelo's family, who do you like the best? The worst? Why?

I think the piece (The Battle of the Centaurs) makes me uncomfortable; but it is a difficult piece I imagine to do.

Will elaborate more later.

Bentley

Battle of the Centaurs was 1492

The earliest surviving work was also done in his teens:

Madonna of the Stairs - Completed in 1491

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.co...

Bentley wrote: "Battle of the Centaurs was 1492

The earliest surviving work was also done in his teens:

Madonna of the Stairs - Completed in 1491

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.co..."

Yup. Those are the two described in Book 3.

I also liked comparing the difference between the degrees of relief in the two works. I'd never really thought about that before.

There really is a difference in his style.