The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of December 21st through December 27th, we are reading the next 18 pages of No Ordinary Time by Doris Kearns Goodwin.

We are reading less pages due to the upcoming holidays.

The tenth week's assignment is:

December

December 21 - December 27 ~~ Chapter Fourteen (360 - 378)
Chapter Fourteen – “By God, If It Ain’t Old Frank!” – page 360

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This thread should only deal with this chapter and these pages. No spoilers, please.

Discussion on these sections will begin on December 21st.

Welcome,

Bentley

TO SEE ALL PREVIOUS WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL








Doris Kearns Goodwin

Roosevelt has often been accused of pretending to be isolationist while secretly leading the country to war. How do his foreign policy decisions leading up to the war support or refute this statement?

How did Roosevelt's managerial style sustain his "one-man-show" in office for all four terms?

Do you believe that Roosevelt's motivation for the New Deal stemmed from political expediency or humanitarianism? Does his poor record of protection of civil rights support or dispute your answer?

What is one of the major foreign policy lessons that Roosevelt learned from watching Woodrow Wilson in office? How did this effect the way that he handled America's entry into World War II?

I am still amazed at the number of houseguests in FDRs White House. The chapter opens and FDR has decided to go on one of his trips: a ten car presidential train to begin a two week inspection tour of factories, army camps, and navy yards (September 17, 1942).

He seemed to desperately want Eleanor to go with him. Here was a man who could not be alone; yet he had been an only child (his step brother from his father's previous marriage was so much older than he).

I have to wonder what he is thinking...he still had Princess Martha visiting for days in the White House and he had invited as additional companions on the trip - two unmarried cousins. Missy had summarily been dispensed with since her illness and Harry had a wife now; so now FDR decided that the one constant he had was Eleanor.

I am wondering why it took him so long to realize Eleanor's worth. What do you think of Eleanor's response to FDR's personal request?

I realize that President Obama and Vice President Biden did a train trip following Lincoln's route...but these days does the US still have a ten car Presidential train with an oak paneled private car and one which has four staterooms, a comfortable living room and a dining room large enough to seat twelve? Or is Air Force One the flying equivalent...somehow I think these train trips are a way to connect more with citizens.

Pages 360 - 361

Bentley wrote: "Roosevelt has often been accused of pretending to be isolationist while secretly leading the country to war. How do his foreign policy decisions leading up to the war support or refute this statement?"

The PBS American Expereince's film on FDR provides useful supporting information including a succinct summary of FDR's foreign policy initiatives in support of the Allies prior to Pearl Harbor.



Of course organizations such as American First Committee accused FDR of serious duplicity or even lying to the American people; professing that he would keep the boys safe from fighting abroad, only to provide every conceivable means of support to the Allies, largely provoking a war with Axis powers, with one ultimate conclusion: Americans fighting the Allies's war, just as in WW I.



IMO, FDR was the quintessential interventionist. He early on saw the menace to a peaceful world from Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito's Japan--he hated their naked aggression. He did what he could despite leading a nation for the most part isolationists in the throes of a deep and unending depression.

Mark, thank you for your response: I wondered why your links showed up the way they did:

I tried to repost them:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presiden...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presiden...

and about the America First Committee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_...

I hope I reposted the ones you wanted.

Bentley wrote: "Mark, thank you for your response: I wondered why your links showed up the way they did:

I tried to repost them:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presiden...

Thanks Bentley. Yes.

..."

Was Eleanor one of the first bloggers?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-ha...

Hi, folks. I've been unable to participate due to time constraints, but I have been able to keep up with the reading here.

I'm not sure that Roosevelet wanted a full scale US involvement in the war. Recall how unprepared the US was at the beginning of the book. I know that FDR wanted to help the Allies, but without committing troops, which he found a way to do through his lease program. It wasn't until the US was attacked, that FDR had the rationale for committing to full US involvement in the war.

As for FDR needing an entourage, I think that much of that had to do with his mother. She doted on him and as you can see, FDR surrounded himself with women who doted on him, except for Eleanor. As his wife, she became more a fall back, as we witnessed when he had no one to travel with him, but the others seemed to fill a void in him that his mother had been the one to do. Do you think that her death increased his need for female attention?

Sera wrote: "Hi, folks. I've been unable to participate due to time constraints, but I have been able to keep up with the reading here.

I'm not sure that Roosevelet wanted a full scale US involvement in the..."

Yes, I wonder if it was his rationale or finally his ammunition.

Sera wrote: "As for FDR needing an entourage, I think that much of that had to do with his mother. She doted on him and as you can see, FDR surrounded himself with women who doted on him, except for Eleanor. ..."


I really thought that...it seemed he became more needy in that area.

Glad to have you back in the conversation and an excellent observation.

Thanks, Bentley. As I learn more about FDR, the more conflicted I become in regard to the type of person that he was. The way in which he abandoned Missy after she was no longer useful to him really bothered me. Eleanor was more compassionate about her situation than FDR was, even though he continued to provide financial support. I guess the issue that I have with him is in regard to his loyalty and that on a personal level, he was primarily concerned about his own needs with little regard for how others felt. Again, I view his relationship with his mother as the basis for this trait. Moreover, this personal characteristic, I believe, then carried over to how FDR ran his political life. At least he was consistent in his character in that sense, but I think that understanding FDR as a man is the key to understanding much of his political success. Maybe that true for most politicians, but maybe not.

Purely speculating, I would say that Eleanor's response to FDR's idea that she could become more of a traditional wife and companion was probably wise. As several sources noted, their social tastes and habits were so different that it seems like trying to spend a lot more time together in social activities at their age would have eventually led to more hurt feelings and misunderstandings. Eleanor chose to continue to be a fellow worker rather than a social companion and I think that is how they best complimented each other.

That's a great point, Andrea. Eleanor had learned to function independently within the marriage, and good for her for not letting herself be used as a filler until FDR found another female companion to pass his time. Her life had a purpose that didn't revolve around him and I believe that he probably had a healthy respect for that. She still remained a constant in his life without the frivolity that he sought from his other companions. I don't think that she was a fun and games type of woman. There were too many important things to do than to sit around making FDR feel good about himself.

This is absolutely a great excerpt of a 1936 presidential campaign speech given by FDR...you also see Alf Landon pontificating as well.

But FDR is downright brilliant and hilariously funny. I laughed aloud...so will you..you will see the same quality that I think the American people saw with this speech

Here is the youtube link: (Enjoy!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRZUaW...

As Dorothy Thompson, the columnist, wrote.."If Landon had given one more speech, FDR would also have carried Canada!"

Who was Alf Landon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alf_Landon

On This Day (Alf Landon obit)

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/gener...

Also famous in this election was the quip: As Maine goes, so goes Vermont.

http://www.thisdayinquotes.com/2009/1...

Sera wrote: There were too many important things to do than to sit around making FDR feel good about himself.

Very true Sera.

Sera wrote: "Thanks, Bentley. As I learn more about FDR, the more conflicted I become in regard to the type of person that he was. The way in which he abandoned Missy after she was no longer useful to him rea..."

FDR had been instilled with the idea that everything was possible for him and nobody had left him or abandoned him. He was secure in his skin and felt that the world was his oyster and he never felt differently even when his health beat him down...he always believed that he could and would be able to conquer even polio. I think to others around him...he became bigger than life itself because of his affability in spite of his limitations and it is clear that everyone kowtowed to him (aside from his mother) and she got her way with his marriage. I think that was the one bond that he could not do without. His mother truly formed him to her own image of what he should be like, what he should like and what he should detest. She never let go.

I really think he was her whole world and she wanted to protect him any way that she could. A lot of folks could say that she was domineering and overbearing and probably all of that was true...but she loved him very much and I think would have laid down her own life for his. But I do think she impacted his marriage to Eleanor from the very beginning; even though it was only through her intervention was it saved at the end. In fact, I might add, she was steadfastly in Eleanor's court during the entire Lucy Mercer affair.

This was quite the write-up on Sara at the time of her death: Time Magazine - Monday, Sep. 15, 1941

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/art...



Jan Pottker

Thank you for the clip, Bentley. FDR really knew how to get a crowd eating out of his hand.

You can understand a lot of what historians report about FDRs charm and charisma after watching that clip.

Bentley, thank you for the link to the Time Magazine article. I found Sara Roosevelt to be an amazing woman. The word "indomitable" comes to mind.

If interested, from my notes taken whilst reading Jean Edward Smith's FDR:

Following the death of his first wife, James Roosevelt, at 48 courts his favorite 1st cousin, Anna “Bamie” Roosevelt, TR’s older sister (age 22). [Eleanor, if I remember correctly, lived with Bamie for some time after Eleanor’s parents died.:]

Anna wasn’t interested in James R, but she introduced him to Sara Delano (age 26), “a great beauty and presence.”


HER grandfather was Warren Delano – a hugely successfully self-made man. Top 12.


As a result of the Panic of 1857, he faced bankruptcy. He returned to China to remake his fortune. Sold opium. {I noticed that Time implied he remade his fortune through the sale of tea. Smith says different. But Time wrote in 1941, another time, FDR was then president...also, I would think it rather a challenge to restore one's fortune in 5 years through the sale of tea.}

In 1862, his fortunes restored, Warren Delano sends for his family. 7-year-old Sara spends 4 months on board ship traveling to China. I liked this: she learns sea chanteys … which she later sings for her great-grandchildren.

FDR could sometimes engage in embellishment. Yes. Shocking, isn't it? Two days out of New York, Sara’s ship sighted a steamer. In FDR’s version of the story, it was the dreaded confederate ship the Alabama. “I have a copy of the log of the clipper ship my Mother and her Mother went to China on,” he wrote to Felix Frankfurter in April 1942. “They passed the Confederate commerce destroyer Alabama in the night but were not seen,”

The fact is, the Alabama was lying unfinished in a shipyard until July 1862. Writes Smith, “It was part of FDR’s charm: a good story was sometimes preferable to an accurate one” (13). [ME aside: Ask me about my mother-in-law sometime.]

1866. Family living in Paris on the Right Bank. Time of the Paris Exposition and construction of the Eiffel Tower. Would see Count Otto von Bismarck “walking alone and unattended” under their balcony as he went to see the exhibits.

From Paris, the family moved to Dresden, Germany. 1870, at 15, Sara was on the last passenger vessel to leave a German port before the outbreak of the Franco-Prussian War.

At 18, writes Smith, “If Sara fell in love, it was with the young Stanford White…who apparently fascinated Sara. In 1876 he commenced to court her seriously.”

But at the time he didn’t seem to have good financial prospects; Warren Delano “despised” him; and Sara was sent to live in Hong Kong until she had “come round.”

[Personally, the name Stanford White didn’t mean anything to me. But my daughter wants to be an architect. Told me he was an extremely famous architect. The most prominent architect of the Gilded Age. And, he eventually become exceedingly wealthy.:]

If you want to see something incredible, google for an image of Stanford White's Venetian Room. The Gilded Age made visible.


Sara, age 26, meets James, age 52. She is 2” taller. They have a 10-month honeymoon tour of Europe…cut short due to her pregnancy.


26 hours of labor. Narrowly survived chloroform overdose.

FDR un-named for 2 months as Sara and James struggle for naming rights. [Sara wanted Warren Delano ---{Adelle: she must have forgiven Daddy.} James’s family tradition dictated the son be named “Issac.” … but James hadn’t followed that tradition with his first son … he had named HIM James Roosevelt Roosevelt.]

“Families as wealthy as the Roosevelts usually entrusted their newborn babies to the care of experienced nurses and old family retainers. Not Sara.

As soon as she recovered form childbirth, she insisted on doing everything herself. ‘Every mother ought to learn to care for her own baby.’(19) Even nursed him for almost a year.

Doctor’s advice: No more children. FDR learns Latin, French, German at home.

Many or most of you probably have already heard this story: FDR at 5. w/father stopped at White House to say goodbye to Cleveland. “My little man, I am making a strange with for you. It is that you may never be president of the United States.” (23)

Smith writes, America’s confidence in FDR depended on R’s incredible confidence in himself, and that traced in large measure to the comfort and security of his childhood (25).

Jean Edward Smith

Well I am late again but catching up.

These 18 pages and no commentary at all on the production achievements of America that FDR visited on his trip. Well the book is about FDR & Eleanor but it is not even mentioned once.

I think it is a bit unrealistic to fault FDR too much for moving on without including Missy (I did not use abandoning) - I think that as we go through life we find that some people have to be in certain positions to continue and for FDR I think you had to be communicative or productive or helping him. He was the President so people helped him do his job. His link to Missy was a work link.

I think also that to fault him too much for his attempt to reconnect with Eleanor is not reasonable. Time had passed since the hurt to Eleanor and they had been partnering in his administration in different roles. They were still parents together etc. I also think that Eleanor was, for herself, probably right to pass the offer – she would have had to abandon the non-direct FDR links she had made. But if she had tried part way that might have worked too.(I don’t want to be a spoiler here but that might have made her closer to him towards the end rather than others or another)

If he had lived past his presidency and been relatively healthy it would have been interesting what might have developed between them.

I really wish I could take the time to look at all the things the rest of you dig up. I will try soon I hope to be caught up.

Vince...I find some of that odd as well.

I am not sure what FDR's link to Missy was; but at the very least it was more than "just work" and from every indication it was very social and familiar. She even learned all of FDRs favorite actiivities and even went fishing with him. FDR though charismatic did have the tendency to discard women aside from his mother who insisted that he keep Eleanor around. Otherwise she would have been parked at the curb too. (smile)

The "another" probably was "always emotionally" there filling a specific niche; somewhat as Eleanor was filling her designated role as the "token well respected and accepted socially long standing spouse".

I guess there is always hope but given my gut feel...what I think would have happened once he was out of office and out of the public view would be for FDR and Eleanor to finally go their separate ways and I think he would have lived with and/or finally married Lucy.

The threads are always accessible so you can reread them at any time.

Bentley

I agree with Bentley. I think that FDR would have divorced Eleanor if he had lived post-Presidency. His mother had died, and without her to make him feel guilty, I think that he would have thrown caution to the wind and done whatever he wanted in his twilight years to make himself happy.

I also don't view Missy as a simple "work friend". Doubtless she was in love with FDR and whatever views FDR haed on the subject, the fact that she was heartbroken over their change in relationship indicates that she could not move on. Moreover, I think that the fact that FDR took care of all her medical bills and expenses leads me to conclude that he felt some type of obligation to her, besides a collegial one.

Some very good points Sera...I think that once his mother died...he resumed the Lucy Mercer affair in earnest. And poor Missy..I agree she was very much in love with FDR. At least at some level, FDR assumed some responsibility for providing a level of support for her. And this had to be out of guilt.

Hey, I'm with you, Vince. Just catching up again.

The whole first half of the chapter is about war production and the tour FDR took. Those stats are amazing. We all know that the US went into war production at the highest gear as soon as the shock of Pearl Harbor hit. I was most impressed with the comparison to Germany on page 363. 9 months after Pearl Harbor we were making 4000 tanks a month. And Germany, the war power house, was making 4000 a year.

I also enjoyed reading about coming up with new ways to do things. For example, there was a shortage of brass, the only material good enough to make cartridge cases. Through experimentation, they figured out to use steel. (See page 366.) In the last chapter, on page 347, it lists all sorts of "groundbreaking scientific developments" that came about due to the war, like plasma and synthetic drugs and radar and the jet engine.

Yes, war is terrible and horrible and all. But the saying, "There is no great loss without some small gain" holds true here.

Elizabeth S wrote: "Hey, I'm with you, Vince. Just catching up again.

The whole first half of the chapter is about war production and the tour FDR took. Those stats are amazing. We all know that the US went into w..."

Thanks Elizabeth

Also this was the industrial emancipation of woman in a way.
The hero of this book so far is Eleanor leading minorities, woman, the underpriviliged onto the road to progress (not that far down the road - but after her more firmly or just beginning on it).
I really feel there is a big loss to our prosperous generations currently arriving to maturity. What these folks did was necessary - the industrial, social and business activity of our country was always building and expanding, defending and increasing standard of living and lifespan etc. - today, remmeber I am less young than most, does creating a better video game, or selling more large screen TVs compare for young people (there is to my mind a big difference between a first TV and a BIGGER TV) as a worthy challange.
I have no solutions for such efficent production that the needs of mankind can probably be filled by the efforts of less than 20% of the population if modernly equipped. - Anyway the industrialization for the second world war, in my view, led a generation to working with a common goal.

I think you are right, Vince. A generation working towards a common goal, and it was an incredible thing. I mentioned it a few months ago on an earlier thread, I think Brokaw did a good job honoring that generation in his book:

I know it has been a while since we read this stuff, but I'm still confused about something and wonder if anyone could help me out. I'm probably just missing the point somehow.

At the end of this week's reading, pages 377-378, it talks about how ER never really forgave FDR for his affair. And then it says this poem "Psyche" was found in her apartment after she died and she had written "1918" on it, the year she found out about the affair.

But the poem says "The soul that had believed/ And was deceived/ Ends by believing more/ Than ever before." That doesn't sound like someone who never forgave. What am I missing?

Does it mean that she was further taken in. I am not sure.

Bentley wrote: "Does it mean that she was further taken in. I am not sure."

At least I'm not the only one unsure. :)

Elizabeth...I think some things are a "double entendre".

I think Eleanor often was disappointed with life and relationships. She always picked herself up and "believed" again. And maybe she realizes in the end that she was deceived at his end too and maybe right along. It could not have been easy finding out that her daughter had a hand in the deception.

So, perhaps it isn't that Eleanor believed in her husband more, but that she found something else to believe in more?

Part of the danger of lies and deception is that it ruins all credibility. Lots to think about there.

Yes, those are the lines along which I was thinking. She found things more important to believe in than herself and her husband's relationship and marriage.

Sera wrote: "Thanks, Bentley. As I learn more about FDR, the more conflicted I become in regard to the type of person that he was. The way in which he abandoned Missy after she was no longer useful to him rea..."
------------------

I think abandoned is too strong a word.

He paid her medical bills. After two mental breakdowns he let her continue to work in the WH. After her stroke he let her try to come back to work.
And on page 335 we are told that "the president provided nurses round the clock." Most astonishing to me was back on page 246 when it was noted that FDR changed his will and left Missy with half of his estate. This involved removing the Roosevelt children as beneficiaries.

Elizabeth S wrote: "I know it has been a while since we read this stuff, but I'm still confused about something and wonder if anyone could help me out. I'm probably just missing the point somehow.

At the end of thi..."

Maybe it should be changed that she never forgot & never excused and always remebered rather than never forgave -

People compartmentalize things and maybe she did this with the Lucy affiar too so that she wouldn't have to "forgive" to keep on.