The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

This begins the ninth week's reading in our new Presidential Series group discussion.

The complete table of contents is as follows:

Prologue. Jefferson Surge: America, 1992-1993 p.3
1. Philadelphia:1775-76 p.27
2. Paris: 1784-89 p.75
3. Monticello: 1794-97 p.139
4. Washington, D.C.: 1801-1804 p.200
5. Monticello: 1816-1826 p.273
Epilogue. The Future of an Illusion p.349
Appendix. A Note on the Sally Hemings Scandals p.363

The assignment for this week includes the following segments/pages:

Week Nine - March 29th - April 4th -> 4. Washington, D.C.: 1801-1804 p.240 - 272 - Western Magic - Scandals - Gibraltar - Lists and Losses

We look forward to your participation; but remember this is a non spoiler thread.

We will open up threads for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers.

This book was kicked off on February 1st. This will be the ninth week's assignment for this book.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

A special welcome to those who will be newcomers to this discussion and thank you to those who have actively contributed on the previous Presidential Series selection. We are glad to have you all.

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Here also is the syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Joseph J. Ellis

The First Barbary War

The First Barbary War (1801–1805), also known as the Barbary Coast War or the Tripolitan War, was the first of two wars fought between the United States of America (briefly joined by a small Swedish fleet) and the North African states known collectively as the Barbary States. These were the independent Sultanate of Morocco, and the three Regencies of Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, which were quasi-independent entities nominally belonging to the Ottoman Empire.



Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Ba...

Pirate Coast: Thomas Jefferson, the First Marines, and the Secret Mission of 1805

This was an amazing book which deals with this conflict! It comes highly recommended.


Richard Zacks

Here's my review I posted back in May of last year.

Richard Zack's writing style succeeds in vividly portraying the story of a stubbornly persistent American patriot called William Eaton. Zack brings us along while William Eaton forges ahead through a road-blocked filled adventure to save the fate of Captain Bainbridge and his crew of the USS Philadelphia who were forced as prisoners-of-war into slave labor by Barbary pirates within the walls of Tripoli. Eaton's bull-headed, never-take-no-for-an-answer attitude drives him and his army through a death defying 500 mile march across the desert to wage war against these pirates... and he does it with little or no help from the Jefferson administration. This story doesn't end as you would expect it would, so pick it up and enjoy the ride.

The Louisiana Purchase

The Louisiana Purchase (French: Vente de la Louisiane "Sale of Louisiana") was the acquisition by the United States of America of 828,800 square miles (2,147,000 km2) of the France's claim to the territory of Louisiana in 1803. The U.S. paid 60 million francs ($11,250,000) plus cancellation of debts worth 18 million francs ($3,750,000), a total cost of 15 million dollars for the Louisiana territory.

The Louisiana Purchase encompassed all or part of 14 current U.S. states and two Canadian provinces. The land purchased contained all of present-day Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, parts of Minnesota that were west of the Mississippi River, most of North Dakota, nearly all of South Dakota, northeastern New Mexico, the portions of Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado east of the Continental Divide, and Louisiana west of the Mississippi River, including the city of New Orleans. (The Oklahoma Panhandle, and southwestern portions of Kansas and Louisiana were still claimed by Spain at the time of the Purchase.) In addition, the Purchase contained small portions of land that would eventually become part of the Canadian provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. The purchase, which doubled the size of the United States, comprises around 23% of current U.S. territory. The population was estimated to be 97,000 as of the 1810 census.

The purchase was a vital moment in the presidency of Thomas Jefferson. At the time, it faced domestic opposition as being possibly unconstitutional. Although he felt that the US Constitution did not contain any provisions for acquiring territory, Jefferson decided to purchase Louisiana because he felt uneasy about France and Spain having the power to block American trade access to the port of New Orleans.

Napoleon Bonaparte, upon completion of the agreement, stated, "This accession of territory affirms forever the power of the United States, and I have given England a maritime rival who sooner or later will humble her pride."

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisian...

Lately, I have been studying a bit more on some history of how our Presidents use, or expands their executive powers. This chapter goes right to the heart of my studies... 'The purchase of Louisiana in 1803 provided the first severe test of executive authority...

Introduction to the Treaty of the Louisiana Purchase

The Louisiana Purchase was the name assigned to a series of three conventions in which France sold the territory of Louisiana to the US. On the 30th of April 1803, Robert R. Livingston and James Monroe, of the US, and the French finance minister, Francois Barbe-Marbois, singed the three conventions of the Treaty. But why were there three conventions in the one Treaty?

The first convention of the Louisiana Purchase Treaty established the financial aspects of the purchase. It specifed theamount that the US would need to pay France for the territory [see Article 1:]; how the US would fund this amount [see Article 2:] and in what time frame this amount should be repaid, with the proviso that France could call in the total amount at any time. Furthermore, it fixed the value of the US dollar to 'five francs 3333/100000 or five livres eight Sous tounois'. [see Article 3:] Ratification was to take place within a period of six months from the signing of the convention.

The second convention of the Treaty further explained the financial matter associated with the purchase of Louisiana. It established deadlines for payments [see Article 3:] and included the proviso that no more than 20 million francs of interest could accumulate on repayments. [see Article 2:] The conventions aimed to treat Louisiana's citizens fairly in regards to trade [see Articles 4 and 5:]. Claims were to be inherited by the US upon purchase of the territory but they would have the right to verify the validity of these claims [see Articles 7, 8 and 9:]. If the US rejected the claim, she would be exempt from payment and the French would have the final ruling [see Article 10:]. This period of claims could onlt take place within a year of ratification [see Article 11:], where ratification would occur withing a period of six months from the signing of the convnetion [see Article 13:], and France would be free to persue her own claims from citizens in the area for the same amount of time. [see Article 12:]

The third convention of the Treaty is by far the most important of the three, not only because it enabled the US to buy the entirety of Louisiana but because it represented the beginning of the US's continental domination and her emergence as a world power. It is also significant in that it was purchased at a time when the Constitution 'said nothing about acquiring new territory, or of promising statehood to it' [Morison and Commager p391:], as Article III of the third convention stated. As such, Leonard D. White suggests that

'The purchase of Louisiana in 1803 provided the first severe test of executive authority. Jefferson himself was satisfied that he had no constutional authority to purchase the territory, and Republican doctrine confirmed this reading of the Constitution. The stakes were so enormous that the President finally abandonned his scruples; no mention was made of the constitutional difficutly in his message recommending approval; and his party followed silently the course marked out for them.' [Leonard D. White p32:]

Due to the fact that the Constitution was not equipped to authorise the acquisition of new territory, Jefferson was forced to make an ammendment to the Constitution, [you can read his draft of changes to be made to the Constitution here:]. According to Hunter Miller, Jefferson recieved the Treaty on July 14, 1803 and organised to convene Congress on the 17th of October in order to change the Constitution so that he was legally able to purchase the territory. The changes to the Constitution along with the ratifications of the Treaty and its conventions were passed on October 19, 1803, along with the ratifications of the Treaty and its conventions in Congress. [E. W. Lyon p243:] Ratifications were exchanged the following day, making the purchase of Louisiana fully legal.

The contents of the third convention of the Treaty are highly illuminating. Article I mentions that France's cession of Louisiana to the US was dependent upon the French fulfillment of the terms of the Treaty of San Ildefonso of 1800 with France. [Read what Hunter Miller has to say about Article I here or find out more about the Treaty of San Ildefonso here:] As such, the cession of Louisiana was to be viewd as 'a strong proof of his [Napoleon's and, hence, France's:] friendship' with the United States. [see Article I:] All property contained within the territory was to be inherited by the US with no exemptions [see Article II :] and included her citizens [see Article III:]. A commissary from France would besent to Louisiana 'to transmit' the territory to America's appointed agent [see Article IV:], including all of its military posts, with their accompanying personnel withdrawing within three months of ratification [see Article V:].

One of the major issues focussed on in the third convention was that of trade. As a result, the US was to continue to honour treaties made by either Spain or France with Native American Indians in their time as owners of Louisiana [see Article VI:]. Likewise th Us should also establish a trade equality with France for a 'limited time' [see Article VII:]; this should also include equal rights for Spanish vessels for a period of twleve yeras in US ports commencing three months after ratification. French ships, however, were to 'be treated upon the footing of the most favoured naitons in the ports' beyond the expiration of the tweleve years stipulated in the convention [see Article VIII:].

Both the first and second conventions of the Treaty were to be ratified as if present in the third convention, forming an intergral part of its terms and conditions. [see Article IX:] Ratification was to take place within six months of the signing of the Treaty in France.

Source:
http://www-personal.arts.usyd.edu.au/...

More on the material later, but this Louisiana Purchase passage was a proofreader's dream - the game of finding all the typos, lol. But the material looks thorough.

The LA purchase is a great example of practical realities once in the office. Many candidates say small government or stricter use of powers, but there are moments that change their thought. He seemed to realize that he had to act quickly before Napoleon pulled the plug on the deal.

Thanks for the posts, Joe.

You can also argue that western settlers and speculators also pressured the government over the years. I don't think TJ's vision was the only thing that was going on here, a aspect Ellis does not explore.

Here is something interesting Ellis' writes:

"the accusations of sexual promiscuity defy most of the established patterns of Jefferson's emotional life...because his deepest urges were more self-protective and sentimental than sexual." (p. 219)

Thoughts? I will put in my thoughts a little later but I thought I'd bring it up.

Sometimes I think Ellis is trying to channel Jefferson but I get the feeling he is really talking about Ellis (strange).

Well said Bentley. Ellis' psycho-history comes out again. The problem as we know is that we will never know if Sally and TJ had an affair.

I appreciate what he is doing, but I don't buy it completely. You can certainly put together an argument for the affair using his own words. Sally was with him all of her life. We don't know what their relationship really was. Why couldn't he build a discrete sentimental relationship with Sally that develops over decades? Her mother was Betty who was his wife's sister, etc.

Very true...the signs point in that direction but who knows for sure.

And everything that you said is spot on. Frankly, Jefferson would have had a lot to rationalize if he were having an affair with Sally given his wife's family and history for sure.

Well I am behind again but have finally finished chapter 4.
The ending of this chapter really illustrates my lack of knowledge of American History, as I am not aware of the "headlong fall from grace" of Jefferson during the second term that Ellis refers to.
I find it interesting here catching up that there is no mention of Jefferson's attitude towards the Indians if one follows Ellis.
It seems that the volume of land that would be necessary for the country to develop and somewhat flourish following the agrarian Republican principles was the continuous underlying force/direction in the Jefferson presidency. The acquisition of the Louisiana Purchase beyond his constitutional authority was acceptable to this end. The initiation of removal of Indians so that farmers could work the land. The continuation of slavery to prolong one of the fulcrums for economic success of the Virginia (southern that is) planter model.
This book is about the character of Mr. Jefferson and I think I will have to find another fuller biography soon to see if I should and/or how high should I resurrect Mr. Jefferson to his previous position of saintliness that he held in my eyes. I really never much considered the Sally matter and maybe I should have more. (Maybe that will call for a third biography to read - it struck me that it seemed from what I knew that within the culture they lived in she was treated well)
His reducing the national debt was at a cost that was probably excessive and is somewhat mirrored today in the lack of willingness to have large national expenses - nor taxes - everyone seems to want their particular benefits protected.

Hi Vince,

There is no problem in your catching up as you have time. Bryan and I will be here to converse with you.

Bernstein has written a short biography which you might find worthwhile - good reviews or if you have a lot of time there is the Dumas Malone version.

The slavery issue and Jefferson's arguments and procrastination speak volumes about "true intent". But everybody needs a visionary and our fledgling country was no different.

R.B. Bernstein

Dumas Malone

Hi Vince, good post. Yeah, I agree, his second term was not that great, especially compared to his first term. Some of it was out of his control like the rise of the Napoleonic Wars in Europe. If you want a straight forward political bio, try:

by Noble E. Cunningham Jr.

A book on TJ and his Indian policy:
by Anthony F.C. Wallace

I think the strength of Ellis' book comes from making TJ a human being who has flaws.