Madam, want to talk about author Mary Stewart? discussion

Well, I just finished Touch Not the Cat, and while I enjoyed it, I wouldn't say it was one of my favorites. At times, the plot seemed to meander here and there without much tension or suspense, although I will say that I couldn't figure out who Bryony's telepathic lover was, and even after the big reveal, "he" still wasn't a done deal in my mind - kudos to Stewart for that!

I think I was kinda icked out over the possible cousin romance, which I personally find distasteful to contemplate (thanks, obnoxious cousin Scott!!) Stewart worked this cousin angle in The Gabriel Hounds also, and I know it was (or is) more acceptable in some parts of the world then in the US.

Thoughts anyone?

I have never had cousins that I have been close enough to (they were much older and lived far far away), so that's something that wouldn't phase me in the least.

I was pretty floored at the big reveal, I never saw that one coming.

Misfit wrote: "I was pretty floored at the big reveal, I never saw that one coming...."

Agreed. Even after the reveal, it still looked to me like our hero might turn out to be the baddie afterall.

Lucky you for not having a cousin Scott...

Sounds like I'm happy to not have a cousin Scott...

(brothers were bad enough)

Actually, I had a couple of cousins that I had crushes on as a young teenager....

But you're right, there is not the taboo on it in England that we have here in the US.

Touch not the cat was my favorite of hers and I think it was because the secret lover was such a surprise. There was no way to guess that one!

I've recently re-read Touch Not the Cat. It's my least favourite of her novels, along with The Gabriel Hounds (that one was because of the relationship with her cousin, didn't care for that). I felt that TNTC moved quite slowly to begin, but when the "secret lover" was revealed, I enjoyed it more. The day they spend together having a picnic, etc. was very satisfying, the ending got quite exciting. She writes a nice love story.

I was quite surprised at the big reveal, I never saw that one coming.

From discussions I've had elsewhere, cousins intermarry in Britain isn't quite so squicky to them as it is to us in the US.

Touch Not the Cat is my all-time Stewart fave! While I understand some of the criticism (Hannah, the cousin Scott thing cracked me up) the romance in this book just makes me swoon. And I agree, the "reveal" is great.

I seriously have read this book at least a dozen times since I first read it as a teenager. On later readings, I have also come to appreciate the historical love story with Wicked Nick that parallels the young lovers.

I agree Rosemary. (I ignored the whole cousin thing and imagined they were extremely removed.) The swooniest part was when he was in the orchard and she found out he was her "lover". If I could bottle that feeling, I would douse myself with it every day :)

Oh, I loved that scene. Interesting but it was mentioned at another reader site that her books may be slightly different in the UK versions, at least Gabriel Hounds. As I understood it, the UK version has the MC's as first cousins, where in the US version they are second cousins, since we are so sqeamish about cousins marrying on this side of the pond.

You see, as a Brit, I just don't get this whole cousin thing - what's wrong with marrying your cousin, first, second or otherwise? :D :D

I loved this book the first time I read it and have enjoyed it every time since then; the telepathy was a big draw when I was younger as I was (and still am) really in to SF and Fantasy, so that was a part of it for me.

Carol wrote: "You see, as a Brit, I just don't get this whole cousin thing - what's wrong with marrying your cousin, first, second or otherwise? :D :D

I loved this book the first time I read it and have enjoyed..."

I guess it is a culture thing, it just doesn't happen much over here. Except maybe in the very rural areas of the Ozark Mountains :D

When I was growing up, it was strictly taboo to marry a first cousin. IIRC, it may even have been against the law. The urban myth was that if cousins had children, they would be severely handicapped and deformed both mentally and physically.

ETA: I just looked it up and about half the US does not allow first cousin marriages. The other half has some restrictions such as being of legal age and not being able to bear children. Interesting that it is illegal in Arkansas as they are always getting a bad rap for inbreeding.

Carol wrote: "You see, as a Brit, I just don't get this whole cousin thing - what's wrong with marrying your cousin, first, second or otherwise? :D :D..."

You obviously never had the kind of cousins I had....
:P

Lol.

I think with European countries, it is/was all about preserving the bloodlines. Especially the royal ones. I think they did that in the old south (US) for the similar reason of keeping money and property in the family.

As another Brit, I agree with Carol - marrying a cousin just doesn't register on the radar as an issue(not that it's particularly common). I remember not really understanding Christy's qualms when I read Gabriel Hounds. In the version I read, their fathers were twins so they were definitely first cousins. I seem to recall that she was concerned partly because their fathers were identical twins and so she and Charles were even more closely related than most first cousins.
I hadn't realised that their relationship was changed for the US - perhaps the fact that it was is in itself a recognition of the difference in attitude between UK and US? And if they were second cousins in the US version then I definitely don't understand how there could be a problem, or indeed how one of the main plot tensions worked.

I didn't have a problem with the second cousin relationship in the US version. However, I do post my reviews on Amazon UK and had some odd comments from the Brits about me calling them second cousins. I didn't realize until recently there were different versons and took my review down there.

I'm reading this one now....and trying very hard not to look at any of these postings at this moment! =)) I've read TNTC a long long time ago but it's been so many years that it is all fresh and new.

I like how Bryony describes her family history in the first chapter...lots of clever wordplay there.

Debbie wrote: "I'm reading this one now....and trying very hard not to look at any of these postings at this moment! =)) I've read TNTC a long long time ago but it's been so many years that it is all fresh and ne..."

Enjoy! It's quite fun to do a buddy read later, as long as you can resist reading the comments until you've finished.

I enjoyed this book. The fantasy element was good and the historical flashbacks. I did not guess who the secret lover was at all and it was very thrilling. About the Gabriel Hounds, actually Charles was adopted into the uncle's family, after his biological father, who was a first cousin (maybe a 2nd cousin, I cannot remember) of the twins, was killed. I cannot imagine that they would have invented all of that detail just for the US edition? Georgette Heyer has several instances of first cousins marrying. In real life, Charles Darwin was married to his first cousin, Emma Wedgwood, so not just the royals!

Helen, they must have invented all that for the US edition of the Gabriel Hounds, as I've never heard it before.

This is what my version of the Gabriel Hounds says:

"Our fathers, Charles and Christopher Mansel, were identical twins ..." and then it goes on to describe how they were inseparable and indistinguishable and had married on the same day.

Further on in the same chapter, remembering how everyone had said it would be nice if she and Charles married, Christobel remembers that their parents hadn't wanted it: her father saying that the the family characteristics squared would undoubtedly produce criminal lunatics, and Charles's father retorting that nothing could be more likely in a match that was practically incest.

How interesting. The different details were integrated really well but I will really have to see about getting a British edition. Thanks!

Helen wrote: "How interesting. The different details were integrated really well but I will really have to see about getting a British edition. Thanks!"

I shall be interested to hear whether any other details differ!

I never did come back and comment after finishing this book a week or so ago. I enjoyed it, it might not have had as much of the 'hold your breath' type of suspense; the action was mainly mental, with lots of thinking about everything. But I still liked the story, and I did manage to guess the identity of the fantasy lover....even though I changed my mind at least twice afterwards before The Reveal.

Reason I came here now was that I happened across a sentence in Watership Down where a rabbit was 'festooned with trailing bryony'....had to look up the word then. I had no idea it meant anything at all let alone that it was a plant!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryonia

Debbie wrote: "I never did come back and comment after finishing this book a week or so ago. I enjoyed it, it might not have had as much of the 'hold your breath' type of suspense; the action was mainly mental, ..."

I think I knew that Bryony was a flower, although I don't recall ever having seen it. I'm impressed that you guessed the lover. I begin to think that I read Mary Stewart too young; either I never guessed the twists in her books or I don't remember that I did! But I enjoy the re-reads knowing them, because I can see how skilfully MS hides the clues.

HJ wrote: "Debbie wrote: "I never did come back and comment after finishing this book a week or so ago. I enjoyed it, it might not have had as much of the 'hold your breath' type of suspense; the action was ..."

I still remember the absolute shock I received during my first reading of The Ivy Tree, Hj! After that, I began to pay more attention. But, as you say, she was so skillful at hiding the clues that I still didn't see very many of the ending in advance!

How in the world is "Bryony" pronounced, by the way. Do you know?

@Karlyne...I've been wondering about that myself...I always read it Byrony by mistake anyway, and when I would correct myself I left the I sound the same. But look how dictionary.com has it....bryony [brahy-uh-nee]...it's even more of a tongue twister with the accent where they say to put it! HJ, what do you think?

Debbie wrote: "@Karlyne...I've been wondering about that myself...I always read it Byrony by mistake anyway, and when I would correct myself I left the I sound the same. But look how dictionary.com has it....bryo..."

Good grief! If you say it fast, you end up with a kind of "brawny" sound to it. I'm starting to sound like a donkey. Well, I just checked on the old, fat Webster's and it says long "y" and accent on the first syllable, so it would sound more like a feminine "Bryan". I wonder how MS pronounced it?!?

I bet she just called her 'B'....I think if the book had been much longer I would have gotten to that point myself. =))

I pronounce Bryony: Bry (to rhyme with why), un, ee, with a slight emphasis on the first syllable, although the first and third syllables have almost equal emphasis. Definitely no brawn! And the middle syllable must be said, too: no "Bry-nee" allowed.

I have to say I don't find it a difficult or odd name!

HJ wrote: "I pronounce Bryony: Bry (to rhyme with why), un, ee, with a slight emphasis on the first syllable, although the first and third syllables have almost equal emphasis. Definitely no brawn! And the..."

I've never even come close to a "Bryony" in real life! Brielle, Brianne, that's about it, and they're "Bree-elle, Bree-anne. I must say it looks pretty written out, though.

And I've never heard of the names Brielle or Brianne! I wonder who thought of them? I don't think they'd be very popular here, because many people would think immediately of a lovely French cheese (Brie, pronounced Bree).

Unless of course a popular TV series had a character with the name...

HJ wrote: "And I've never heard of the names Brielle or Brianne! I wonder who thought of them? I don't think they'd be very popular here, because many people would think immediately of a lovely French chees..."

We love Brie! Actually, we love about all cheeses- except for "American", which isn't really cheese, anyway. I think it's made from the rubber tree plant.

I'm just starting to read this one, so I'll come back later to check these comments, even though I know it's a dormant discussion.
:-)

I still get notifications. Hope you enjoy it. It’s one of my favorites.

I just finished my re-read :)

The Kindle versions are finally available in the US, so I'm going through then slowly. Savoring. I hadn't realized how many little changes were made when the books were published in America (Gabriel Hounds, first cousins changed to second cousins, etc.)

TNTC was never one of my favorites and I was always puzzled as to why. It should be. It's got all the elements of a classic Mary Stewart, and I should've adored it. I think because the pace was slower, and I didn't understand why her lover kept telling her to wait.

Re-reading it again, I'm struck by something else. I think this was the book where Mary Stewart started to feel too old for the heroine she was writing about. She has the heroine think things like "People of my generation were never bothered by details such as blah" which seems off-kilter for a young woman in her 20s. It sounds as if it were written by someone of a previous generation. It's as if the young heroine were telling kids to get offa her lawn.

Evelyn wrote: "People of my generation were never bothered by details such as blah" which seems off-kilter for a young woman in her 20s..."

Your generational point is an interesting one. I wonder if it's partly because the Underhill's daughter Cathy is only 18. Bryony talks to Cathy at times like a big sister, and perhaps a 22/23-year old would see an 18-year old as being a younger generation. Just a thought!

I just finished my re-read last night, having read it originally some decades ago. (I've posted a review.) I was so pleased to find that I still enjoyed it. I remember reading all of them back then, so my intention now is to work my way back thought them all.

I think one of the reasons I'm so excited about this is that I haven't found any modern authors who write mystery/suspense books so well. A lot of the ones I've looked at are dystopian, perhaps more violent, which is not want the kind of world I want to lose myself in. I love an adventure with a bit of jeopardy and a mystery to solve, but no brutality. If anyone has recommendations, I'd love to hear them!

The generational thing can happen when one person feels much older in situation or experience, too, than their chronological ages. I've known a lot of people who were close in age that seemed light years younger!

Karlyne wrote: "I've known a lot of people who were close in age that seemed light years younger! ..."

Yes, good point Karlyne, I've known people like that too!

I haven’t read TNTC yet but plan to sometime in 2018. (Happy New Year everyone!) Looking forward to checking it out.

@Sue: My mom just read a book she really liked. It’s called Madame Koska & the Imperial Brooch by Ilil Arbel. With the way she talked about it, it sounded like a fun mystery. Plan to read it next myself.

Ann-Marie wrote: "@Sue: My mom just read a book she really liked. It’s called Madame Koska & the Imperial Brooch by Ilil Arbel. With the way she talked about it, it sounded like a fun mystery. Plan to read it next myself. ..."

Thanks Ann-Marie - I just read an extract and it sounds fun - it's now on my list for 2018!

I think this was the book where Mary Stewart started to feel too old for the heroine she was writing about. She has the heroine think things like "People of my generation were never bothered by details such as blah" which seems off-kilter for a young woman in her 20s.

That's a really astute point, Evelyn. I've never been a huge fan of Touch Not The Cat but I've never quite identified why. This disconnect between the author's age and the heroine's may be one reason. It's almost as though she can't quite understand or sympathise with Bryony because she is so very young.

It's interesting because some of the earlier heroines were deliberately made a little older with some life experiences to mature them - Gianetta in Wildfire, for instance. Why is Bryony made so young? Is it because the dependence on her father and inheritance plot would seem a bit feeble if she was older and had had more time to carve out her own career?

Some of the other later novels, such as Stormy Petrel and Rose Cottage, deliberately make the heroine older, perhaps so Mary Stewart can identify with them better. (But admittedly, I'm not terribly fond of either of those either.) But in Thornyhold, Gilly seems pretty young (and it's another inheritance plot with a girl who has recently lost her father and has no place in the world), yet it seems to work. I never remember Thornyhold with much affection, but I reread it recently and was surprised by how much I enjoyed it. There's a worldly wisdom and gravitas to the heroine and the way she shapes the new life she finds herself in which is very appealing.

I forgot to add that you definitely see the same issue in Agatha Christie's later books, with the elderly Christie increasingly sympathising with the older characters and depicting the younger ones as irritating and selfish. (Eg At Bertram's Hotel.) But not invariably - in Endless Night, which was a very late story, almost all the characters are young and are beautifully and sensitively depicted.

Great comments on the heroines and Mary Stewart's evolving attitudes toward them. I see something similar in myself as I get older. I have little patience with Jennifer in Thunder on the Right as I get older, for example. But Geillis in Thornyhold, who has an older soul, has grown on me.

Are we reading Wind off the Small Isles this month?

Jay wrote: "Are we reading Wind off the Small Isles this month?"

No official group read this month - I got too busy to do a poll. We did a group read of this one about a year ago, so it wouldn't be at the top of my list anyway. But you're welcome to read it and comment in the threads for it - a lot of us are still notified of new comments added to these older threads, so you'd probably get some responses to any comments you make.

I am interested in the short story that, IIRC, is published in the Kindle version with WotSI. I'll check into it and see if a few people would like to do that one.

Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "Jay wrote: "Are we reading Wind off the Small Isles this month?"

No official group read this month - I got too busy to do a poll. We did a group read of this one about a year ago, so it wouldn't b..."

When are we doing The Hollow Hills? Next month? I'm not sure what was said.

We didn't have a follow-up plan for the rest of the series. Let's discuss it in the buddy reads thread. I'm happy to set up the discussion threads for it.

In reply to Jay and Tadiana about Wind Off The Small Isles, the short story is called The Lost One and was discovered by the blogger who does Mary Queen Of Plots.

The two stories share the same heroine, Perdita West. Apparently, they were originally meant to be one of three stories about the same heroine and I'm actually writing a possible third, just for fun and because Allison, the MQOP blogger, suggested it as a writing idea. It has to be said that it's quite difficult to link the two stories. MS didn't habitually write short stories or use the same heroine more than once in her romantic suspense stories, so I'm not sure why she did so on this occasion.