Think [the box] ing discussion
Questions (and answers?)
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Should We "Hate" Hitler?
yeah relyt, I hate Hitler and Che. What's your take on mass murderers? John Wayne Gacey, Ted Bundy, oh take your pick. It's not a matter of giving in to hate, unless of course, you can't handle it. So, relyt, can you handle it? I do mean that as an honest question, not just to you but to all who visit this thread. What is our personal relationship to hate?
So is there a place for hate? Would you say you hate someone like Hitler, or is that an improper way to react to what he did? What if the person is still alive? Does it make a difference whether you know the person as to whether you can properly hate that person? I don't know that hate is an appropriate response to Hitler. It seems far too personal an emotional response than to be levelled at an historical figure. My own take on it is that hatred is that, though, an emotional response. Which can be triggered by .. I guess that depends.
I would definitely agree that hating 'does more' to the hater than the hated- it can be a rather consuming, counter-productive reaction sometimes. Though it serves as a valuable coping mechansim in some cases. Hating does nothing to the -hated-, in and of itself, though.
So, relyt, can you handle it? I do mean that as an honest question, not just to you but to all who visit this thread. What is our personal relationship to hate?
Not exactly sure what to answer here. Can I handle hate? There's one person that I hate for what I honestly consider to be extremely valid reasons, and hmm, I don't handle it very well. That's a gigantic floodgate that I shouldn't think about opening, though ;)
I simply choose not to hate, for several reasons.(1) Hate in any form is too draining of my energy.
(2) When I hate anything or anyone I am giving myself permission to hate myself.
(3) Because I cannot hope to understand EVERYTHING about any other person than myself, there is a huge possibility that I am misjudging them.
I invite you all to checkout this link:
http://www.thework.com/thework.asp
This is something that has assisted me and countless others.
For me, hating someone is only hating myself.
It's not a matter of giving in to hate, unless of course, you can't handle it. So, relyt, can you handle it? I do mean that as an honest question, not just to you but to all who visit this thread. What is our personal relationship to hate?Wow, NB, I never really thought of it that way. I don't know if I'm ready to take the hate challenge just yet, because I can't think of any exact provocation to induce it.
So what's your personal relationship to hate? That sounds like a strange state, but you seem to be enamored by it. Do you consider it a healthy state of mind? Let me ask this, as an experiment: If you were the one to execute Ted Bundy, and you could do it any way you liked, would you use torture?
I have a reason for asking.
Hi Allie --
It seems far too personal an emotional response than to be levelled at an historical figure.
That's what occurs to me, too. It seems hard to hate on an impersonal basis. On the other hand, what if we were all in the middle of WWII, not just looking back safely upon it? Would we hate Hitler then, even if we didn't know him?
A related question is whether you can hate someone who's no longer alive. You mentioned someone you have reason to hate right now. But what would happen if that person suddenly died? Would it change the way you feel? Could the fact of death, in itself, take the sting off your feelings about this person?
Hi Colleen --I agree that it seems hatred can drain a person's reserves and dissipate one's energy. It does run the risk of doing more to the hater than the person who's hated. But here ...
(2) When I hate anything or anyone I am giving myself permission to hate myself.
... here, point 2, are you not taking on more responsibility than you need to? In other words, are you unneccesarily carrying not only your own emotional weight, but also the weight of the person who brought about the feeling as well?
(3) Because I cannot hope to understand EVERYTHING about any other person than myself, there is a huge possibility that I am misjudging them.
Is it necessary to understand everything about a person to have an attitude toward that person? Are you not holding the door open a little too widely on the evaluation of another person's character? Why not base your emotional reaction to someone based solely on what you observe a person doing, and not worry about what's causing the behavior you observe?
I think "hate" is a perfectly fine word when talking about someone as evil as Hitler. "Despise" might be even more appropriate. It's a subtle difference, but it is difference. According to Dictionary.com, "despise" means "to regard with contempt, distaste, disgust, or disdain; scorn; loathe." "Hate" means "to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry."What flabbergasts me is that people think hating evil is worse than murdering 6 million Jews. You can hate Hitler because of WHAT HE DID.
I don't take hate lightly. I hate injustice. I hate genocide. I hate racism. Hate is a powerful thing and sometimes it's justified.
Sandi...excellent points. We can surely hate, without excess. How would I personally exectue Ted Bundy? By the current lawful means. I would do it gladly, and lose no sleep. Charly also makes a good point. Hate is used too much, and now we have "hate crimes" which is really nothing more than thought crimes. It's an important point. Now that hate is criminalized, what's next? There needs to be a firm stand that hate (in and of itself} is indeed legitimate.
Notice what it is that Sandi hates.I, too, can hate injustice, murder, child abuse, genocide. It is the act itself that I hate.
I also hate intolerance, ignorance and greed.
Even though I feel that Ted Bundy's execution was the best thing at the time, I did not nor do I hate the man. I hated what he did, but than again so did he. In the end, he came to realize that there was only one way to stop him and that is why he also realized that it was the best for society.
I believe that when we justify any act of violence in the name of hate it is a crime.
Justice is only justice if it is blind, otherwise it is revenge. Anything done with passion (including hate) is taking out compassion.
I am creating a world of compassion. Sometimes the most compassionate thing to do is to elimate those who do things that I hate. Just don't ask me to also hate those that do them, because the truth for me is there is a little bit of me in each and everyone of them.
The thing about Hitler is that he became the personification of the atrocities that were committed because of him. When someone says that they hate Hitler, what they really, truly mean is that they hate what he symbolizes. Hitler was a charismatic man and many people "liked" him. Just because he had some likable traits, does that make up for his evilness? Does it really make him less loathsome?
When someone says that they hate Hitler, what they really, truly mean is that they hate what he symbolizes.When I think about it, the things I hate are really ideas, like political and economic notions that end up causing trouble.
With people, I'd be more likely to go with "despise," like Charly mentioned. I'm not on bad terms with anyone right now, but if I were, I think "despise" would describe my reaction better than "hate."
How would I personally exectue Ted Bundy? By the current lawful means.Yes, but I didn't mean you would be bound by any lawful means. Earlier, you talked about Che Guevara burning in hell, so I thought you might want to do a little more than just flip a switch and put Bundy to sleep.
The reason I had for asking that was that I think feelings of hate are connected with feelings of injustice. But when injustice occurs on a scale that invites hatred, that in turn implies a desire for retribution, at least among males. Flipping a switch doesn't seem like much in the way of retribution if what you feel is hate.
Relyt: sometimes justice just doesn't seem to answer to the monstrosity of the crime does it. It doesn't satisfy. But in the end, it's what we're left with. We balance our want of retribution with our belief in our legal system and what, in the end, is the most important of the two. And in some cases, our personal beliefs can add to that. Believing that Che is having his stomach "roasted in hell" (thank you Baghdad Bob!) for all eternity may seem like retribution enough.
It's an interesting believe that you have.Someone else's pain gives you joy?
I personally don't see it.
With my whole heart,
Colleen
Colleen, tell me of your greatest suffering, and I will share you mine. Deal?
And by the way, please note from my previous post, that while someone's potential suffering might bring me joy, I'm willing to forego that knowing that there is a greater good to be had.
Adolfo Hitler was a negation of his time,and of any spirit democratic for his nation. Should we hate him?...There are millions of reason for hating him, but in Theory of History, we interpret the facts, we analyze the events, in other words, we condemn his FACTS, and we learn the mistakes of the past, for creating a better society with perspective of tolerance and dialogue for the future. It's logical to hate him, and we should it, but if we only condmen him,ignoring the political message and the wave of racism and intolerance, we are not learning from the past. We study the past, we study concepts, and the facts, we come up with conclusions, and we learn from such devastating experience. In other words folks, if we "only" hate Hitler, Stalin or Napoleon, it's not enough. We have to see their "facts", and see if we are witness of any wave of racism, intolerance, and hate to another human group, and then, we have learned from History, and we are building a better society for the next generations.
Miguel
Miguel
"Would you say you hate someone like Hitler?"We have been taught to hate this person and see him as a monster. Whatever feeling I have towards him is clouded by a subversive form of mind control. He does not exist now and there are far more people doing similar things at this present time for us to try to disempower.
Don't wimp out Carlie....tell us how you feel about der Fuhrer and rid yourself of said mind control. You do have an opinion don't you?Ein Volk. Ein Reich. Ein Fuhrer.
How can I get rid of the mind control when I've been taught that this person hated people like me? It's like being told you have an ennemy but said ennemy has never actually done anything to you personally, not because he would not have but because he no longer exists. It's all very strange in my head. How can I hate someone who's dead you know? And who had been dead for 30 some years before I was even born.I can however hate his actions because there are still people alive now who do similar things. It's like the lesson was never learned.
That's well reasoned enough...thanks. I guess it all depends on the individual.
I find this interesting, in particular because I was just chatting with a friend on a book review about hate (we were talking about Tolkien actually!) and so I feel a bit like I'm repeating myself but I'm sure you won't mind :)Years ago when I was watching the News with my Dad I was angry at John Howard and said that I hated him, and Dad pointed out that "you can't hate someone you don't know."
As someone here pointed out, "hate" is very personal, and I couldn't even begin to really understand it. I can honestly say I don't hate anyone. I am in contempt of a few people, I might even despise some, there are lots of people I don't like, but hate is like the end of the road, there's no going back from it. You need to invest a lot of yourself in someone in order to hate them - like the flipside of love.
I have no personal reason to hate Hitler, and as someone said here, it's what he stands for that we really hate. And fear. As a man he was a bit ridiculous. But I'd say it's easy enough to hate an idea or belief for what it does to people, or a government etc. policy, things like that. I agree with Colleen's third point, that you can never understand someone enough and, also, sometimes it's just a matter of perspective.
Also, sometimes hating someone is more of your emotion and time and caring than they deserve. Being ignored or laughed at is perhaps more effective (I understand this wouldn't have worked with Hitler - I just mean on a more personal basis).
I hate beans - it's essentially a phobia for me. Can't even look at them :)Wouldn't be able to bring myself to eat liver or any other organ - except I have eaten cow's tongue, Japanese style.
Hi, I’ve been lurking around here for a while. I would just like to say that I think it’s fine to hate Hitler. When it comes down to it, isn’t that why many of our ancestors came to the U.S. – so they could enjoy the right to hate whomsoever they pleased? It’s in one of the amendments to the Constitution, I think. That aside, hate him or not, it’s important that we always remember what he did and how he did it, because there are men like him in positions of power today.
I also hate squash. Why would anyone eat that?
I'd say it's fine to hate Hitler if you want to, but in general, hating is a blind emotion, and prohibits you from seeing a situation/person etc. from other perspectives, and leads to narrow-mindedness. We are not all US citizens, by the way :)
Definitely, there are important lessons to be learned from characters like Hitler - and "good" people too - but no one's black and white. Hitler planted a lot of trees! Ok, flippancy aside, we not only need to remember history but understand it as well, because otherwise we aren't even able to spot the people like him today, because we lack perspective.
“We are not all US citizens, by the way :)” I know (including the moderator). Once again, intended meaning is not conveyed properly on the internet – I was trying to allude to that when I said: ….MANY (as in, not everybody’s) of our ancestors came to the U.S.
I just realized why you look familiar – I’m in the Sci-fi and Fantasy book club. So far I’ve enjoyed all the books we’ve read.
Ah, sorry, read that wrong.Me too - it's surprised me but in a good way, 'cause I never liked science fiction before but I've enjoyed the ones we've read, despite their flaws (or maybe because of them?). Anyway, it's about time I got over my fear of Neuromancer :)
Mod
Actually no ... it is not; although our right to privacy might make it difficult to prove, there are several 'hate' crime laws on the books in many states that substantially increase the penalty.
Most of my ancestors came over because they was starvin' back in the old country. A few of the earlier ones came over because they didn't want others telling them how to worship. I have not found anybody who came over so that they could freely hate anything ...
"Most of my ancestors came over because they was starvin' back in the old country. A few of the earlier ones came over because they didn't want others telling them how to worship."Mine too. I was being a smart@$$ about the right to hate thing.
Mod
I wasn't sure :) Thanks for the clarification.
What an interesting thread :-) To me, hate and fear are the same thing - we hate because we fear - its logical to fear certain things because it helps us survive and evolve. Sometimes we can articulate this accurately and say - I fear .... because we have a certain level of control over the situations in which the frightening stimulus will appear. We use hate however to attribute and express our feelings towards other things that we fear and have very limited or no control and sets us up for fight or flight response, but in the end it is still fear that is the real issue and not hate at all.
I've heard that theory before.....Oprah I think, and I can't help but disagree. From my own perspective, I am aware of my hatred of a friend of my father's who kidnapped my sisters and I when we were children. I may have been afraid of him as a child, but definitely not as an adult. If he were still alive, I would have no problem confronting him and causing him pain. No, I am definitely not afraid of him but I definitely hate him. I can just imagine the evil things I could do to him. But alas, someone already took a machete to his head. apparently we weren't the only children he kidnapped or people he pissed off.
I agree that we can hate that which we no longer fear..(if we did before) but agree that it is distinguishable from and not entirely originating in fear. Carlie's example is illustrative of hatred of someone that which we may have feared as a child...but then, who of us has not had to deal with the fact that we have as children but even have as adults "limited or no control" over other people ? people whose actions may have caused us or those we care about pain,and anger without necessarily, fear. What an awful experience to have...to have been kidnapped, as a child!
Certainly in many case fear and hate are synominous, but jealousy too can lead to hate - hate doesn't seem to stand alone, but tends to be a product of something else, some other emotion or circumstance. I don't think you could hate for no reason - that's just blind prejudice and ignorance, not hatred. But I wonder just how theoretical hate is? How often we use the word to describe a more complex feeling, because it is easier and more readily understood.
The more I ponder the word "hate" the more I see it as: strong "negative" reaction attached to any undesired emotion. I put the word negative in quotes because it so subjective. For me, it is one of those words that will never stand alone because it is an illusion. The truth is there is only LOVE. Right now there is a song going on in my head. "There is only Love" by Karen Drucker.The first time I heard it was two years ago.
If you haven't heard it,
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001...
It was one of those songs that assisted me in seeing the truth of what I was experiencing.
Behind every upset, behind every disappointment is a message of love. Many times it is because we so disperately want love that we experience the hurt.
With my whole heart, Colleen
Mod
Interesting ... I have always been taught that Hate may not exist without Love; you cannot hate something or someone for which you do not, on some level, care about. It is the same coin (I think somebody introduced that analogy already :)
I do not know Hitler; I don't really hate him either. I don't particularly support what he did, but I hope that I understand how he did it and possibly even why he did it so that I can help to prevent such from happening again. Hitler himself used hatred to achieve his goals. Hating him in turn merely passing the tool from one hand to another.
Hatred is not open to insight. Hitler would not get to first base today. History teaches lessons. Mathematics is cool enough to propose that 1+1=2. Can't argue, it is not debatable. Human politics, affairs are governed by mathematical laws. But....what do any and all of us do with the poor, disenfranchised, powerless, unfortunate, now? Can Hitler's methods and practices exist today? With difficulty. It is not difficult to hate Hitler's policies and practices...but unfortunately there are quieter and sneakier ways to get rid of problem populations presently in these very sophisticated times. Righteous indignation needs to be resurrected.
Irene,I hate to burst your bubble...
there are modern day Hilters all around the world!
Perhaps it is time that you started watching BBC on a regular basis until you see it.
Hating someone is not a way to elimate hatred.
The only cure for Hatred is love. That means without conditions. Love with condition is not LOVE. I can have righteous indignation about what is happening in the the world and still have love fill my heart.
With my whole heart,
Colleen
Colleen; Wish I could get BBC.But if you re-read my original message (which I should have refined) Hitler would have a problem in the so-called First World. As I said there are quieter and sneakier ways to get rid of problem populations. No jobs, no benefits, no money for gas, no...... There is proof that the poor and powerless die younger from ill-health. I do not think that one with righteous indignation is absent in the ability to love. Also with my whole heart, Irene
Should we hate Hitler? Unless you've been personally hurt by an individual, I don't think you can hate them. Despise, yes, I can despise people for their actions or their ideas - but to truly hate they would have to do something horrendous to me or a loved one - otherwise it's not on a personal level. And yes, I can see the need to get some people out of the general population (Hitler, murderers, rapists, violent criminals, etc.) without truly hating them. Just because I don't approve of what they've done, doesn't mean I hate them. I was a victim of rape in 1982 - but if the perpetrator was brought to judgment before me, I don't think I would hate him - I would just want him removed to a place where he couldn't hurt anyone else. It just takes too much energy to maintain a state of hate - better use to put that energy into the people I love.
Rebecca,What is the difference in your heart between hate and despise? For me despise actually feels like a lower energy than hate. Perhaps because I hear the word hate from little children that are simply expressing that that don't want to experience something.
When I hear the word despise there is so much judgment attached to it that it weighs it down.
Colleen - to me despise is that the actions of the person make them someone I wouldn't want to know or let my family/friends be in contact with. It is more passive than hate - which to me is an active, virulent emotion that requires as much thought and energy as love does. Hate means that you wouldn't hesitate to do them active physical harm in person - whereas if you despise someone, you are more likely to shun them and restrain from any contact with them.
And I would rather be hit or harmed any day above being shunned. Perhaps it depends on your experience. Not being able to defend myself is the more challenging punishment for me.
Colleen wrote: "And I would rather be hit or harmed any day above being shunned. Perhaps it depends on your experience. Not being able to defend myself is the more challenging punishment for me."Hitler was never a personal belief or value. Hitler is history. What did you make of him? Hate is beside the point. Attention and awareness regarding history is the lesson. Hitler warped the following generation and maybe the next one afterwards. Pay attention to history and its lessons.
I hate Hitler, or, as Sandi puts it better, I despise Hitler. Not just for what he did, but for what he started. Can you hate someone after they have died? Absolutely. Theres a video on the net that shows Russian Neo-Nazis cut this poor mans head off with a fairly blunt knife. Watch that, and then say you don't hate Hitler- Hitler lives on. Irene, you're absolutely right. We should pay attention to history and its lessons.
As an aside, I hate Bundy too, but I don't think he should have been executed.
As an aside, I hate Bundy too, but I don't think he should have been executed.
I believe we sshould hate what they represented, hating an individual would be a waste of time. For instance where would the list end? Stalin murdered 20 million of his own people, Pol Pot was similar, Yellowbeard the pirate cut off hostages tongues and made them eat them, and go back far enough you have Genghis Khan who murdered whole cities and cut his victims ears off and placed them in sacks as trophies.
Sorry Sean, as we see throughout history, the individual is enshrined, and their actions apologized. Che t-shirt anyone? Lenin?The problem is that certain individuals of a certain political bent are given a pass. That must absolutely end, NOW.
Do yourself and the world a favor, next idiot you see with a Che t-shirt, give em hell. You'll feel better for it, and you just might have handed out some edumication.
Sean, you forgot to add George Bush to the list. He imprisoned people and subjected them to torture. Also led an army into killing iraqi civlians, including children.
So is there a place for hate? Would you say you hate someone like Hitler, or is that an improper way to react to what he did? What if the person is still alive? Does it make a difference whether you know the person as to whether you can properly hate that person?
I've read that hate does more to the hater than to the person who's hated. But on the other hand, the author Dostoyevsky, one of my favorites, is a huge fan of hatred, apparently thinking of it as a cleansing, masculine stance to take in life, at least sometimes.
So what's the best approach? Do we give in to hate, never give in to it, or do we use it as a surgical tool, at certain times and under certain circumstances only?