Victorians! discussion

Since we're about to enter on (August 2010) a discussion of Hardy's Far from the Madding Crowd, I thought it might be fun to open a thread on Hardy the author, since some us us (not to mention by name Sweetie-Pie Moderator) aren't that familiar with Hardy.

I've started reading (actually started re-reading, since I began it a year or two ago but put it aside for other readings) Claire Tomlin's biography of Hardy and am enjoying it greatly.

One thing she mentions early on, which I was aware of, is that Hardy really considered himself a poet, and only wrote novels for the money, because, as he said, "one had to live."

One interesting thing I have already found in Tomlin is that both Hardy's mother and his maternal grandmother were significantly pregnant when married -- his mother was six months pregnant at the time of her marriage. Turns out that the pre-Victorian sexual mores were apparently a bit looser than I had thought they were! I was also impressed by the fact that although he came from working class stock -- his mother went out into service at age 13 -- both his mother and grandmother were active readers of what we today would consider quite significant literature -- Milton, Richardson, Fielding are some of the specific authors named.

I just finished my first Hardy -- Under the Greenwood Tree. Next up, I plan to read some of his poetry. I am looking forward to learning more about this author.

Yes, I simply must read the Tomalin biography soon! Thanks for creating this discussion thread, Everyman!

I have to add this incredibly insightful comment from one of Hardy's own notebooks. Hardy wrote this in an 1889 entry:

"Love lives on propinquity, but dies of contact."

That pretty well sums up the plots of all of his novels, and much of his poetry.

Until last year, I had shied away from Hardy. I'm not sure why, because now that I've read three of his novels (Desperate Remedies, Tess, and FFTMC), I can't get enough! I've just started Under the Greenwood Tree and have pulled the biography by Tomalin off the shelf and hope to get to it soon.

A couple of weeks ago I bought a Nook (love it!), and I am in the process of filling it up with lots of Victorian literature (for free!), including Hardy's poems.

I can't believe we didn't already have one! I suppose Hardy goes under the radar a bit.

I was studying Hardy's poetry and the same idea kept cropping up, that Hardy (1840-1928) was a Victorian in the 20th century for a good portion of his later life, a sort of relic. This crops up in his poetry quite a bit.

Jeannette wrote: "I just finished my first Hardy -- Under the Greenwood Tree. Next up, I plan to read some of his poetry. I am looking forward to learning more about this author."

It may, then, interest you to know that UTGT was based on Hardy's family's personal experiences. His father and uncles, and perhaps his grandfather, I forget, played the violin (and cello?) in church for many years, but when Hardy was still young (but perhaps old enough to remember, and certainly would have been told the story as a family memory) they were replaced by a modernizing vicar in favor of either a piano or organ, I can't now recall which. But in either event, the shift which forms (with the love story) the centerpiece of UTGT was based on his direct family experience.

Thanks, Everyman, I didn't know that. It puts a different perspective on the story, to know he was writing from personal experience.

I remember reading Jude the Obscure when I was at university not as a set book, it wasn't on the economics syllabus, and I remember being profoundly depressed having read it.

Having said that, my daughter had a Hardy set book for her A level English, I think it was FFTMC, and went on to become a firm Hardy fan

Thanks for starting the thread, E-man! I love the little author tidbits these threads generate!

Christopher wrote: "I have to add this incredibly insightful comment from one of Hardy's own notebooks. Hardy wrote this in an 1895 entry:

"Love lives on propinquity, but dies of contact."

That pretty well sums up ..."

Thanks for sharing the lovely quote, Chris! I can very much see how this is true in his two novels that I have read. (And thanks for introducing me to the word 'propinquity'!)

Thanks for the background information Everyman. It surely enhances the reading experience.

I thought it might be helpful to list some interesting and fun links to the novels and poetry of Thomas Hardy.

The Hardy page on "The Victorian Web" is a great place to start:

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/h...

The Thomas Hardy Society (Dorset, UK): http://www.hardysociety.org/

The Thomas Hardy Association: http://arts.st-andrews.ac.uk/ttha/

I love the THA site! You can find all of his short stories and poetry as electronic downloads. Great photographs of Hardy country too.

Here's a link to a nice page that includes maps of Hardy's 'Wessex.' There are also more detailed maps that accompanied an edition of "The Return of the Native," and Hardy's own sketch map of the country of "Tess of the d'Urbervilles." You might like to print some of these maps and cut them out and insert them in your editions of Hardy's novels.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~bp10/wes...

Finally, since we are reading Hardy's "Far From the Madding Crowd," you might be interested to know that the novel's title was taken from Thomas Gray’s poem Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard (1751):

"Far from the madding crowd’s ignoble strife
Their sober wishes never learn’d to stray;
Along the cool sequester’d vale of life
They kept the noiseless tenor of their way."

Well, have fun with all of this Hardyana, and I look forward to discussing Thomas Hardy's 'break-out' novel "Far From the Madding Crowd" with all of you! Cheers!

Christopher wrote: "Finally, since we are reading Hardy's "Far From the Madding Crowd," you might be interested to know that the novel's title was taken from Thomas Gray’s poem Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard (1751):"

You beat me to it; I was going to mention that in the FFTMC discussion.

But the question then becomes, why did he choose the title from that poem? I think it had a lot more to do with the poem as a whole than just liking the phrase. But then, I happen to love that poem. (It's the source of many other famous quotations, too.)

Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Finally, since we are reading Hardy's "Far From the Madding Crowd," you might be interested to know that the novel's title was taken from Thomas Gray’s poem Elegy Written in a C..."

Oh, I believe you're absolutely right! It has everything to do with the poem, and not just the single unique phrase. Hardy was a poet, and I think he appreciated the craft of those who came before him immensely. That verse is a good one too!

I am quite sure we'll be talking about the relevance of the novel's title as we work our way through the book.

As an aside, speaking of the relationship between a poem and a novel, pull up Hardy's poem, "The Moth-Signal," and think about it in the context of his novel, "The Return of the Native." Way cool!

For those of you looking for a simply superb and amazingly wonderful period piece film adaptation, immediately find yourself the DVD of Hardy's, "Under the Greenwood Tree." Drop-dead gorgeous scenery (filmed on Jersey in the Channel Islands), and the acting is superlative with Keeley Hawes as 'Fancy Day' and James Murray as 'Dick Dewy.' This is a truly feel-good film, and quite closely mirrors Hardy's novel.

Regarding Hardy's Far From the Madding Crowd, Virginia Woolf had this to say--

"Hardy's genius was uncertain in development, uneven in accomplishment, but, when the moment came, magnificent in achievement. The moment came, completely and fully, in Far From the Madding Crowd. The subject was right; the method was right; the poet and the countryman, the sensual man, the somber reflective man, the man of learning, all enlisted to produce a book which, however fashions may chop and change, must hold its place among the great English novels. There is, in the first place, that sense of the physical world which Hardy more than any other novelist can bring before us; the sense that the little prospect of man's existence is ringed by a landscape which, while it exists apart, yet confers a deep and solemn beauty upon his drama."

--from The Common Reader: Second Series (1932)

(I must read Woolf's The Common Reader! I've read some of her insights into Austen, and now I see she is quite thoughtful about Hardy as well. I am beginning to admire her more and more.)

Christopher wrote: "For those of you looking for a simply superb and amazingly wonderful period piece film adaptation, immediately find yourself the DVD of Hardy's, "Under the Greenwood Tree." Drop-dead gorgeous scen..."

I requested it on interlibrary loan, but the library decided to purchase it instead of borrowing it, so I'll have it to watch before too long. Thanks for the recommendation!

Joy wrote: "(I must read Woolf's The Common Reader! "

Oh, yes, she's great. I enjoy her most as a bedside or Throne room book, not trying to read her straight through but dipping into.

Actually, there are two volumes of the Common Reader, though they might be combined into one volume in some editions. But make sure you get both if you go for them.

Claire Tomalin's biog is excellent and I too recommend it.

Hardy is a good, if not great poet and many of the descriptive passages in his novels confirm this. They are my main reason for loving Hardy best of all the Victorian authors, especially as I prefer narrative to dialogue and he is strong on narrative. Hardy wrote that he 'aimed at keeping [his:] narratives as near to poetry in their subject as the conditions will allow'.

It was his difficulties with the Victorian reading public and with his publisher over Tess of the D'Urbevilles which 'well nigh compelled him' to give up writing novels and return to his original love of writing poetry. Tess was turned down for serialisation in 'family' magazines several times and when, finally, Hardy found a publisher, the editor insisted that several 'adult' scenes, which Hardy thought were crucial to the story, were removed. Hardy viewed this with 'cynical amusement' but agreed to some significant changes, mainly because he needed the money. Tess was his penultimate novel and he published his final one, Jude the Obscure, 'under stress of necessity'.

Thanks for the links, Madge. They were very interesting. i was toying with the idea of buying Tomalin's biography.
Although, I have to disagree about Hardy as a poet. Tiresome!

Do you mean the poesy in his narrative Lauren, ir the poems themselves? They are very Victorian, I admit, so somewhat maudlin:).

I mean his actual poems. I bought his collection a few months ago. A few were all right, but I didn't overly enjoy them.

The strange thing is, I think he has a highly distinguished poetic voice in his prose, as you say. I know Hardy thought of himself more as a poet than a novelist, but I think in the latter medium he was more accomplished - the best of both, I suppose.

I know he was slated quite a bit by his contemporaries for his poetry?

MadgeUK wrote: "His earlier poems, when he was first breaking into the field around the time of the Boer War, received adverse criticism but later he became highly regarded as a 'modernist'. Philip Larkin was muc..."

Thank you for all of your wonderful links! I particularly enjoyed the Guardian review of S. Tomalin's biography. I am very much looking forward to reading it soon!

Lauren wrote: "The strange thing is, I think he has a highly distinguished poetic voice in his prose, as you say. I know Hardy thought of himself more as a poet than a novelist, but I think in the latter medium he was more accomplished - the best of both, I suppose. "

I have started re-reading Far from the Madding Crowd in preparation for the discussion Christopher will be leading, and I am finding some of his writing, for example his discursion on the natural world at night to be more poetic than much poetry.

Everyman, you are spot-on. His prose is lyrical and poetic. I am thinking a nod to the great lyric Greek tragedies that Hardy so admired.

Christopher wrote: "Everyman, you are spot-on. His prose is lyrical and poetic. I am thinking a nod to the great lyric Greek tragedies that Hardy so admired."

Which is why I so admire him.

What could be more delightful than the opening sentence of FFTMC, especially 'like the rays...':

'When Farmer Oak smiled, the corners of his mouth spread till they were within an unimportant distance of his ears, his eyes were reduced to chinks, and diverging wrinkles appeared round them, extending upon his countenance like the rays in a rudimentary sketch of the rising sun.

Or this first description of Bathsheba:-

It was a fine morning, and the sun lighted up to a scarlet glow the crimson jacket she wore, and painted a soft lustre upon her bright face and dark hair. The myrtles, geraniums, and cactuses packed around her were fresh and green, and at such a leafless season they invested the whole concern of horses, waggon, furniture, and girl with a peculiar vernal charm....

When we read words like these in a first chapter, we surely know we are in for a treat! They also make me regret that we do not live in a time where books and poetry were read aloud for an evening's entertainment - Hardy was personally much sought after for such readings.

See, I prefered this bit:
'When Farmer Oak smiled, the corners of his mouth spread till they were within an unimportant distance of his ears, his eyes were reduced to chinks, and diverging wrinkles appeared round them, extending upon his countenance like the rays in a rudimentary sketch of the rising sun.'
Yes, not very poetic, but a great and warm description. Sometimes the Victorians can seem so chilly and distant, but Hardy had such an eye for small human details. Lovely.

While Shelley is my favourite poet, Hardy is a close second. I think he is better as a poet than an author (not to detract from his penmanship as a novelist).

He can capture a thought with an economy of words which few can match and do so with a long remembered, haunting rhythm. He is also one of the few poets that can bring a tear to my eye, as in the seductively simple “It Never Looks Like Summer”.

P.S. I love The Darkling Thrush too Madge.

Stephen wrote: "While Shelley is my favourite poet, Hardy is a close second. I think he is better as a poet than an author (not to detract from his penmanship as a novelist).

He can capture a thought with an ec..."

Stephen, I am sure you know that Hardy was a huge fan of Shelley's poetry. In fact, in "Jude the Obscure," Sue Bridehead quotes a few lines from Shelley's "Epipsychidion." And Shelley's notion of 'Free Love' laid out in the poem is vitally important to the plot of Hardy's "Jude."

Also, I always love encountering Hardy's poem, "The Moth-Signal," and then sitting back and thinking about his beautiful novel, "The Return of the Native."

Good stuff!

Christopher wrote: "I thought it might be helpful to list some interesting and fun links to the novels and poetry of Thomas Hardy.

The Hardy page on "The Victorian Web" is a great place to start:

http://www.victoria..."

Thanks Everyman, Chris, and Madge for this great information. I am a Hardy beginner but am enjoying Far from the Mad. Crowd. I am entranced by the setting. Several of my recent reads set in England have distinctive local settings -- I am tempted to start a personalized literary map.

Sarah wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I thought it might be helpful to list some interesting and fun links to the novels and poetry of Thomas Hardy.

The Hardy page on "The Victorian Web" is a great place to start:
..."

...and it just gets better and better, Sarah! I am so glad that you'll be joining us in the group-read. I'll bet we end up creating a large group of us that will be proud to call ourselves 'Hardyans' (or, the 'Hardy Ones,' or 'Hardyites,' or the 'Wessex Wonders'--Okay, I'll quit now;-). Cheers! Chris

MadgeUK wrote: "What could be more delightful than the opening sentence of FFTMC,... "

tsk tsk, starting a specific discussion of FFTMC before the official start date!

Didn't know I had!:)

MadgeUK wrote: "Here is a Guardian article about my favourite Hardy poem i>The Darkling Thrush:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/books...

Do you hav..."
Thanks for posting the link, Madge. I love The Darkling Thrush, as well. 'Darkling' is such an evocative word and the image of the tiny bird is so powerful. I always feel a little lonely after reading that poem.

Sarah wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I thought it might be helpful to list some interesting and fun links to the novels and poetry of Thomas Hardy.

The Hardy page on "The Victorian Web" is a great place to start:
..."

Is Wessex meant to be Dorset? I know that was where Hardy lived. I'm off to Google for a snoop.

Well thanks again for the links! :D I have heard the name Wessex used nowadays, so that must be a lastign influence of Hardy's.. Have a great time on your holiday, I have wanted to go to Lyme since reading The French Lieutenant's Woman by John Fowles.

Lauren wrote: "Well thanks again for the links! :D I have heard the name Wessex used nowadays, so that must be a lastign influence of Hardy's.. Have a great time on your holiday, I have wanted to go to Lyme since..."

The present Queen Elizabeth's youngest son, Edward, was created the Earl of Wessex and his wife, Sophie is described as the Countess of Wessex. Perhaps that is the modern day usage you have heard? As far as I know this has nothing at all to do with Thomas Hardy.

From the top of my head, I've seen National Trust properties (on their website) refered to as being "in Wessex".

Oh, you really are showing up my ignorance on these matters! :P

Madge, what a fantastic landscape.

LOL. I have far more travelling years under my belt than you have:):) The NT probably use use that title because it might attract tourists interested in 'Hardy Country' Lauren but there is now no county or region such as Wessex in the UK. (See map of current English counties on the General Information thread.)

Yes the landscape in that part of England is still very rural and much of it as Hardy described. But you live in a beautiful part of England yourself since Kent is described as 'The Garden of England':),

Tess was trapped by her culture to be a 'fallen woman'. She left Christinity in grief after the church refused to baptise her illegimate child.
The rapist was protected by the culture. When she has the chance to regain her respectability through marriage, she must become a criminal. Like the tattoo in Les Miserable or the Scarlet Letter, social stigma forces one into permanent exile.

MadgeUK wrote: "My hotel room looks out over the famous Cobb, Lauren:).

http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/d... "

I trust you are re-reading Persuasion to get in the mood.

Everyman wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "My hotel room looks out over the famous Cobb, Lauren:).

http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/d... "

I trust you are re-reading Persuasion to get in the mood."

Madge ought to be reading Persuasion, and watching her footing on The Cobb.

Karlstadt wrote: "Tess was trapped by her culture to be a 'fallen woman'. She left Christinity in grief after the church refused to baptise her illegimate child.
The rapist was protected by the culture. When she ..."

Spoiler Warning -- If you've not read "Tess" and think you may, read the following at your own peril.

While I see where you're going with your comment, I don't see it quite that 'black and white.' First of all, I am not convinced that Christianity has a damned thing to do with Tess. It is all about social convention; and while the church plays a role in that, it is not what drove her actions, and the actions of those around her. It was really the secular concerns, i.e., what society thought (or would think). The business with the kid painting slogans in red paint on barns and stiles, and Alec's evangelical 'conversion' is all really a red herring.

Whether Alec, the "rapist" as you call him, was protected is again immaterial. What Hardy illustrates is the double-standard that is applied to women in these times. Whether Tess was willing, or forced is simply irrelevant. She became pregnant, and it is what it is. Hardy's question to the reader (and the characters) is--now what do we do?

Finally, Tess would not have been forced into "permanent exile" if either man had done right by her; i.e., in the first case, Alec marries her, loves her, and provides a good home for baby and mother; and secondly, if Angel accepts her, loves her and makes a good home for her.

This novel is more about the Fates conspiring against a "pure woman," the despicable actions of two men in her life, and the uncaring society that surrounds her. Now, mind you this is just my humble opinion.

Everyman wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "My hotel room looks out over the famous Cobb, Lauren:).


I trust you are re-reading Persuasion to get in the mood."

LOL. Yes and watching The French Lieutenant's Woman, which has some beautiful shots of the Cobb and Lyme Regis.

Christopher wrote: "Karlstadt wrote: "Tess was trapped by her culture to be a 'fallen woman'. She left Christinity in grief after the church refused to baptise her illegimate child.
The rapist was protected by the c..."

I do not agree that the church had little to do with the mores of Victorian society Christopher. In my post 48 above, I have indicated how much Hardy's writing was affected by the actions of two Christian Evangelists, Stephen and Mudie, and much of the morality which affected 'fallen' women like Tess was preached from the pulpit. Hardy himself rebelled against Christianity for this reason and we will see another example of his exposing these cruel values in FFTMC.

Nor do I agree that if either Alec or Angel had 'done right' by Tess, all would have been OK. What would have been OK would have been for Tess, and Victorian women like her, not to have been ostracised because she had an illegitimate child. Had she not been brought up in a society where such a burden of guilt was placed upon her by her society via the church, she would not have felt she had to commit suicide and Sorrow could have been buried inside the churchyard. A woman today in the same situation and belonging to a more tolerant Christian society would not have faced these dilemmas.

(I will be watching my footing on the Cobb but not reading Persuasion!:).)

MadgeUK wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Karlstadt wrote: "Tess was trapped by her culture to be a 'fallen woman'. She left Christinity in grief after the church refused to baptise her illegimate child.
The rapist wa..."

Spoiler Warning -- If you've not read "Tess" and think you may, read the following at your own peril.

Madge, I do completely agree with you that the church played a major role in Victorian society. What I was referring to was that, in my opinion, the triangle between Tess, Alec, and Angel had everything to do with the heart and human emotion, and little, if anything, to do with religion. You yourself say it in that "Hardy himself rebelled against Christianity". I personally happen to agree with you. He wanted all of us to consider a life outside of it, and the folly of living inside of it.

While the religious beliefs and the social mores of the time could have dictated the course of events, even a different outcome; in the end though, it was really the fundamental feelings of each of them that inexorably drove the novel. Hardy made the point, several times, that there were off-ramps along the way, but nobody chose to use them.

In Tess's rational mind, the consequence of her actions had to be paid for through the regime dictated by her belief in the religious and secular society she lived in, but it was her heart that drove her to do what she did. That is my belief.

Christopher wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Karlstadt wrote: "Tess was trapped by her culture to be a 'fallen woman'. She left Christinity in grief after the church refused to baptise her illegimate child...."

Yes, it certainly was a crime of passion:(. But would it have occurred if she hadn't been troubled by the ostracism she faced, which meant she had to live a certain kind of life?

We had better not start a discsussion of Tess here though!!:)

Talking of the "fallen woman", do you know any other Victorian novels dealing with that theme, other than Gaskell's Ruth (in which it is dealt with very poorly, I think)?