The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

This is the folder for comments and ensuing discussion associated with Adam Bede "Book First" (Chapters I-XVI). Please bear in mind that if you have not finished this first section, you are very likely to encounter plot spoilers. Also, in deference to first-time readers (like me), please do not give away, or allude to, any details about plot-points in future sections either. Have fun!

Thanks a lot Christopher - I expect everyone has been looking forward to this 'grand opening':). I have already put some Background Info in another thread to get folks 'in the mood' about GE and the locations she lived in and wrote about. Where there might be 'spoilers', I have indicated them.

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks a lot Christopher - I expect everyone has been looking forward to this 'grand opening':). I have already put some Background Info in another thread to get folks 'in the mood' about GE and t..."

Thank you, Madge, you are such a dear for all of the great information that you bring to our reads!

In my reading of Adam Bede, Adam is always wearing a "paper hat." Pray tell, can anyone explain to me what precisely a paper hat is? I assume it is not simply a hat made from folding up a sheet of newsprint? Seems a bit of flimsy affair to me.

Christopher wrote: "In my reading of Adam Bede, Adam is always wearing a "paper hat." Pray tell, can anyone explain to me what precisely a paper hat is?"

The only paper hats I know of are the ones traditionally worn during Christmas celebrations (more HERE). They've been included in Chistmas Crackers since the early 1900's. Not sure if these are the ones in Adam Bede, however.

Maybe Madge or one of our UK friends could shed some light on the issue.

Paper hats used by tradesmen in the 19th C. Chase her links as far as you wish:

http://pennyplain.blogspot.com/2008/0...

Here is some info and a pic about the paper hats which used to be worn by certain trades:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer&...

http://www.legprints.com/pages/artist...

I think the paper used by carpenters like Adam would have been a heavy brown paper, possibly oiled. Newspaper would not have been easily available to working men at this time.Brown wrapping paper has quite a long history and is mentioned by Dickens in The Christmas Carol. It was mentioned as 'shop paper' in 1745.

Oops we crossed posts Kate! There was no post about hats here but when I went back to edit the pennyplain link out in favour of the Eric Gill one, up you popped:).

MadgeUK wrote: "Oops we crossed posts Kate! There was no post about hats here but when I went back to edit the pennyplain link out in favour of the Eric Gill one, up you popped:)."

Yes, so we did. And isn't Google a wonderful way to find information! :) :)

Fabulous, Ladies! That is simply fascinating! I still wonder why they didn't just wear a more durable cloth hat, but then that may have been expensive to replace all of the time, and it certainly would have gotten grubby quickly. I learned something new! The Tenniel illustration was perfect too. I loved that poem--The Walrus and the Carpenter--and it quite fits our Adam Bede too!

Has anyone here tried folding/making one of these hats?

Kate wrote: "Yes, so we did and isn't Google wonderful..."

Yes indeed but sometimes you need to know what to input - the old garbage in garbage out rule. For instance, as you will know, 'paper hats' did not bring up those links but 'carpenter's paper hats' did, by bringing up 'printer's hat'.

Chris: I think there would have been a value in making hats which could be thrown away when dirty. Quick wash and dry materials were not as available then and the drying of any kind of washing is not always easy in our climate!

MadgeUK wrote: "Chris: I think there would have been a value in making hats which could be thrown away when dirty. Quick wash and dry materials were not as available then and the drying of any kind of washing is not always easy in our climate! "

Good point Madge. It's easy to forget that domestic chores that are trivial for us could be major obstacles in the 19th century, especially in damp climates.

On another thread, Everyman had mentioned that there was a lot of proselytising in Adam Bede. Victorians liked to read sermons and many were published in pamphlet form but we are very unused to them. How are folks finding Dinah's long 'Methody' sermons?

This sermonising on village greens was, of course, begun by John Wesley, who was sympathetic towards women preachers. When he died in 1791, quite a few Methodist women preachers emerged and one of those was George Eliot's Aunt Samuel upon whom Dinah is modelled and from whom Eliot got the story upon which AE is based. Adam Bede is set around 1799, at a time when quite a few women were preaching, not 1859 the date the novel was published. GE was brought up as an Evangelical Anglican but she did a lot of research into Methodism, its history and practice. She read and annotated South's Life of John Wesley. At end of the century the Methodist Conference decided against women preachers except those preaching to women themselves. Whilst other Victorian authors presented Methodism as hypocritical and prosaic, Eliot's account is historically accurate, honest and charitable compared with general Victorian views and those of her parents and brother within the CofE.

Christopher wrote: "In my reading of Adam Bede, Adam is always wearing a "paper hat." Pray tell, can anyone explain to me what precisely a paper hat is? I assume it is not simply a hat made from folding up a sheet of newsprint? Seems a bit of flimsy affair to me. "

Indeed, that's what it is, though probably a somewhat stronger paper than newsprint. Working with wood is a somewhat messy business, what with shavings from planes, sawdust, and dust from sanding, and the hats would keep the dust out of the worker's hair as he bent over his work.

And since they were disposable, they didn't need to be cleaned, as cloth hats would have, but could just be tossed out and replaced.

Here is the Tenniel drawing of the Walrus and the Carpenter showing the carpenter wearing his paper hat.

Goodreads apparently won't let me post a link to a pdf file, but if you google the phrase

how to fold a paper carpenter's hat

you will find a link to a pdf file on the Tools for Working Wood site (a superb site for very high quality woodworking tools; I love them and wish I could afford more of their tools) that shows you exactly how to fold a paper carpenter's hat.

Edit: I see after having read on in the thread that I was preceded with the Tenniel drawing and paper hat directions. Such is the price of waiting until after dinner to post!

Oops another crossed post! Great minds have been thinking alike here!!

I love her characterization of the older women: Lisbeth Bede, Mrs. Irwin, Dinah's aunt. Some of the secondary male characters are great too, but those women!! Scene stealers, all of them.

So true Kate. I loved the first description of Mrs Irwine: 'She is as erect in her comely embonpoint as a statue of Ceres, and her dark face, with its delicate aquiline nose, firm proud mouth, and small intense black eye, is so keen and sarcastic in its expression that you instinctively substitute a pack of cards for the chess-men and imagine her telling your fortune.':).

Did you like Dinah and her sermonising? I find her a bit prissy:).

MadgeUK wrote: "I loved the first description of Mrs Irwine: 'She is as erect in her comely embonpoint as a statue of Ceres, and her dark face, with its delicate aquiline nose, firm proud mouth, and small intense ..."

Dinah bores me. She's too much the ideal selfless Christian, at least so far. I like my characters to have a few rough spots, or at least enough pettiness in them to make them human.

Me too Kate. I can see that this is going to be yet another Victorian novel where I am on the side of the bad gels:):)

Eliot was very interested in painting. A painter was one of the major characters of her Middlemarch, some important scenes are placed in an artist's studio in Rome, and Eliot herself was very fond of going to the London art shows.

This, I think, clearly shows in some of her descriptive passages, which are almost painting in words. For example, the description of the village and countryside in Chapter 2. There is enough detail there for any painter to give a quite accurate painting of the scene. I know some people tend to skip detailed descriptions, but hers are so vivid and so detailed that I think it's a shame to skip them and not draw the painting in your mind as you read.

Everyman wrote: "you will find a link to a pdf file on the Tools for Working Wood site (a superb site for very high quality woodworking tools; I love them and wish I could afford more of their tools) "

I'm hiding that site from my husband. I thought the Lee Valley catalog was bad, but that one would be an even worse temptation.

MadgeUK wrote: "Me too Kate. I can see that this is going to be yet another Victorian novel where I am on the side of the bad gels:):)"

Yep. Hetty it is!

Another interest of Eliot was science. She often used scientific examples or similes where other authors would use non-scientific ones.

We see one example early on where she describes Mr Casson as "two spheres, bearing the same relation to each other as the earth and the moon; that is, the lower sphere might be said, at a rough guess, to be thirteen times larger than the upper, which naturally performed the function of a mere satellite and tributary." Has any other author described a person in such terms?

Another example is early in chapter 11, where Adam, commenting on changes, says "The square o' four is sixteen, and you must lengthen your lever in proportion to your weight, is as true when a man's miserable as when he's happy...."

I really enjoy these little tidbits of science lore scattered throughout the novel.

Everyman wrote: "Eliot was very interested in painting. A painter was one of the major characters of her Middlemarch, some important scenes are placed in an artist's studio in Rome, and Eliot herself was very fond..."

I love the detailed descriptions too Everyman. GE rivals Hardy for me in this respect. I have posted some Victorian paintings of Warwickshire countryside scenes in the background info, which may be of interest.

The other thing I love about GE is her omniscient narration. She is truly above it all, like a goddess. From the Hall Farm chapter: 'Yes, the house must be inhabited, and we will see by whom, for imagination is a licensed trespasser: it has no fear of dogs, but may climb over walls and peep in at the windows with impunity. Put your face to one of the glass panes in the right hand window: what did you see?....' Magnificent!

MadgeUK wrote: "The other thing I love about Hardy is her omniscient narration. She is truly above it all, like a goddess. From the Hall Farm chapter: 'Yes, the house must be inhabited, "

You meant Eliot, of course, and yes, that's a passage I also noted to comment on at some point. Nice that our minds run together on that!

While she hasn't done it so much in this early novel, in later novels she interjects little philosophical comments. You remind me to keep an eye out for whether she hints at this aspect of her writing to become more fully developed in later novels.

In addition to the omniscient aspect of the passage you cited, there's also the technique of bringing the reader directly into the novel, so it's "you may" do this, or "put your face to the panes," and "what do you see?" Shs is not an author telling a story, but is a companion trespasser, pulling a perhaps more reticent companion along and making the reader a directly involved observer.

MadgeUK wrote: "Put your face to one of the glass panes in the right hand window: what did you see?....' Magnificent! "

Yes I loved how she draws you into peering into the windows and leads you to see that the Hall is now Hall Farm, and like the genteel watering place that is now a bustling port, the quiet unproductive gentility (Ahem! the Jane Austen aspects if you wish) has been supplanted by a more useful endeavor. " ...the life at the Hall has changed its focus, and no longer radiates from the parlor, but from the kitchen and the farmyard."

I have to agree with all of you on several most excellent observations. First, Eliot love of the English landscape and the English rustics. More than once the novel's narrator draws the reader's attention to the Dutch school of landscape paintings, maybe a bit contrived, but it certainly does put the reader in the right frame of mind to appreciate her vivid scenes of the pastoral. Having just completed my torrid summer of all-things Thomas Hardy, I am struck by some amazing parallels--the descriptions of the landscape, and the rustics that live in them. Even Hardy's titling of Under the Greenwood Tree or The Mellstock Quire: A Rural Painting of the Dutch School. Fascinating, to say the least!

The characters in this novel are simply amazing, and most of them I like very, very much. I am particularly taken with Adam and his brother, Seth; Mrs. Bede; the Poysers (especially darling little 'Totty'!); Reverend Irwine, and Arthur Donnithorne; and, yes, I like very much Hetty. While Dinah Morris is 'preachy,' I am willing to give Eliot the benefit of the doubt for a while. And how about good old 'Gyp' the dog!

Again, as I have discovered in Hardy's works, and in previous reads of Eliot's novels, names seem to be important--

Adam = the first man, and after the Fall, is forced to work hard; and this seems to fit our 'Adam' too.
Seth = Josephus refers to Seth as virtuous and of excellent character, this seems to fit Eliot's 'Seth' to a T.
Arthur = the 'gentleman soldier' the 'warrior'

I am probably out in La-La land (well, I do live in LA, after all) on this naming business, but it sure has had me thinking as I've read the novel. I love thinking about allusions to this and that as I read.

What does everyone think about the role and use of 'the Narrator' so far? Eliot is a known didact, and that seems to be a part of it; as though she likes to preach at, and teach, her readers at various stages through the story. I got a lot of that in The Mill on the Floss, and especially in Daniel Deronda.

I am absolutely loving this story so far though!

Unfortunately, I believe that I have caught the influenza that my wife has been battling the past few days. I truly feel like hell right now. I am going to call it a night early. :-(

I look forward to visiting with all of you tomorrow. Cheers! Chris

Hope you feel better tomorrow, Chris.

Oh Chris, I am so sorry to hear that you have influenza at the beginning of our first read. I know how much you were looking forward to it. I do hope that it is one of those bugs which pass quickly.

I am with Chris in that the first thing that struck me were the names of some of the characters. Adam Bede strikes up images not only of the first man but also of the Doctor of the Church, The Venerable Bede. Adam is clearly a 'venerable' man and something that also tied in nicely to the whole Christian theme was that he was a carpenter like Jesus.
The reference to Seth can also be to the youngest named son of Adam and Eve from the Bible. he was the only one remaining after Cain killed Able and was banished. In the book Seth almost seems like Adam's son as he looks up to him with so much respect.

Great observations Kester - thankyou.

Thanks Madge. On a lighter note, the name Gyp for the dog may be a bit of irony since I think gyp is a word which means something like 'fraud or swindle', which thus far at least, Adam's furry, four legged friend is anything but!

:) It is also short for Gypsy Kester - perhaps bought from a Gypsy?

Ahhhhhhh! Gypsies are not very common in my part of the world except for a Calypsonian turned Politician named Gypsy. How common are they in rural England though? I am clueless.

Kester wrote: "Ahhhhhhh! Gypsies are not very common in my part of the world except for a Calypsonian turned Politician named Gypsy. How common are they in rural England though? I am clueless."

Remember little Maggie Tulliver's encounter with the camp of gypsies in The Mill on the Floss when the little gel ran away from home? I suppose they were never as common in the UK as the bands of Roma that migrate about the Continent (by the way, what the French are doing to the Roma is appalling!).

I will answer on the Background thread Kester. M.

Christopher wrote: "The characters in this novel are simply amazing, and most of them I like very, very much. "

I agree. But something I never wondered before -- either I'm getting more suspicious in my old age or I'm becoming a more sophisticated reader -- is Eliot deliberately creating characters, particularly in Adam and Dinah, who are too, unrealistically, good? Is she deliberately creating inhuman characters for some reason? No human is perfect, but so far both Adam and Dinah seem to be. Neither one seems to exhibit a single even potential fault. Is she leading up to something here?

Christopher wrote: "I am probably out in La-La land (well, I do live in LA, after all) on this naming business, "

Not at all. Authors choose names for a reason. They are almost never just random choices picked out of the phone book (or whatever served for the phone book in Eliot's time.)

These are all, for starters, very Biblical names, as is Bede. (Bede could relate to The Venerable Bede and his Ecclastical History of the English People, and also could relate to bedesmen, who were hired to pray for the king and country. Recall the bedesmen in Trollope's The Warden.)

Thinking of naming, ask yourself, would you feel the same way about Hetty and Dinah if their names were reversed, and Hetty were the preacher and Dinah the coquette? For myself, it would change my perception of the characters.

Everyman wrote: "No human is perfect, but so far both Adam and Dinah seem to be. Neither one seems to exhibit a single even potential fault. Is she leading up to something here?
"

I was folding clothes last night (a chore I dislike) and thinking about how sickeningly perfect Adam and Dinah were compared to the other characters in the book. I'd gotten as far as wondering if those two were supposed to represent some kind of Christian ideal to compare with Seth, Arthur and Hetty who are much more human.

Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "The characters in this novel are simply amazing, and most of them I like very, very much. "

I agree. But something I never wondered before -- either I'm getting more suspicious..."

You know, Everyman, you bring up an excellent point! I wonder if, because this was her first novel, that this is just a less than sophisticated first attempt at character development on her part. They do almost come across as caricatures, don't they? Having said that though, I have to say that I had a very similar opinion of her character of 'Daniel' in Daniel Deronda (which was her last novel). With Eliot, I find that it is always all about balance. I say, "We keep reading, and see what we discover." Excellent observations, Everyman!

Kate wrote: "to represent some kind of Christian ideal..."

Not so much a Christian ideal I think but an idea of how some Christians turn out when brought up in different branches of a religion. GE had problems with her parent's evangelical wing of the Church of England and eventually became an agnostic. In AB we seem to see her flirting sympathetically with the idea of Methodism which she had seen in her Aunt Samuel but later I think this emphasis changes. Her portrait of the Rev Irwine. the Church of England rector, is also sympathetic and he comes over as a much less straitlaced character, don't you think, and a tolerant, good humoured one. I rather see the kind, jolly Rev Irwine as representing the sort of rector GE preferred but did not have in her young churchgoing days, as against the well-meaning but uptight Dinah.

MadgeUK wrote: "Kate wrote: "to represent some kind of Christian ideal..."

Not so much a Christian ideal I think but an idea of how some Christians turn out when brought up in different branches of a religion. GE..."

Regarding Reverend Irwine--

I felt that there were several subtle but fairly direct allusions in this section by Eliot that the good Reverend; while a jovial, likable, erudite, and dedicated family man; was maybe not quite up-to-snuff as a theological representative of the Church of England. As I recall, Eliot seemed to imply that his official duties were performed rather perfunctorily. Did anyone else pick up on this?

He wasn't even all that concerned with Dinah's preaching on The Green, but sort of felt he had to go 'talk' to her to just keep up the image.

Almost reminds one of the contrast between the itinerant Jesus and the Jewish religious establishment in the early period of his ministry.

MadgeUK wrote: "Kate wrote: "to represent some kind of Christian ideal..."

Not so much a Christian ideal I think but an idea of how some Christians turn out when brought up in different branches of a religion. GE..."

Yes, Reverend Irwine is a very appealing character and also more human than Dinah. But Dinah and Adam together really are a compendium of virtues. And no vices, at least so far. So their artificiality stands out from everyone else.

But Dinah is also fiercely independent and determined to go her own road, no matter how much the people around her try to prevent that. She is by no means "biddable". This willingness to flout the expectations of society and assume a somewhat masculine role as a preacher echoes some of GE's own choices in life.

Would this stubborn intransigence been seen as a fault in a Victorian woman? Probably so. Maybe our perception of her "prissiness" or her being too "good" are colored by our own modern values.

Balance, balance, balance--Dinah Morris vs. Reverend Irwine. Yin and Yang. Very interesting.

MadgeUK wrote: "Her portrait of the Rev Irwine. the Church of England rector, is also sympathetic and he comes over as a much less straitlaced character, don't you think, and a tolerant, good humoured one. "

Reminds me of Farebrother in Middlemarch. She was certainly able and willing to present very relaxed, appealing churchmen. I really like both Irwine and Farebrother.

Christopher wrote: "[Irwine] wasn't even all that concerned about Dinah's preaching on the green..."

I thought his attitude towards Dinah preaching on the green and the remarks he made to Joshua about that indicated religious tolerance, rather than neglect of his duties and that GE would have approved of that?

I agree, Kate, that Dinah is an independent woman who flouts the Victorian ideal, as did GE but I doubt that GE would have made her quite so prissy if she was to have represented GE herself. I don't think we are being any more judgemental than the Victorians because not only do the characters in AB make remarks about her 'goodness', the Victorians themselves criticised the Dissenters in this way. Joshua reflects this in his complaints to the Rev Irwine: 'there's no knowin' what'll come if we're t'have such preachins as that agoin'on ivery week - there'll be no livin i'th'village. For them Methodisses make folks believe as if they take a mug o'drink extry, an'make theirselves a bit comfortable, they'll have to go to hell for't as sure as they're born...' :)

What do people think of Dinah's preaching? I found it personally very impressive, very compelling. I think Eliot did an excellent job of finding a particular voice for her and carrying it through in a tone very distinct from the rest of the book.

For me the dialect was pretty tough to master at first. I am so accustomed to dialouge in British Literature being so proper. I have gotten the hang now and it is very melodious especially when delivered by Mrs. Poyser, who, by the way, is my favorite character thus far, together with the bit part player, Wiry Ben.

MadgeUK wrote: "Kate wrote: "to represent some kind of Christian ideal..."

Not so much a Christian ideal I think but an idea of how some Christians turn out when brought up in different branches of a religion. GE..."

Although Adam and Dinah represent two ideals, they are able to appreciate the practical things in each other. Dinah appreciates Adam's strength and Adam appreciates Dinah's simple beauty. Maybe GE is drawing an allusion to the fact that the established church and society (Adam) can coexist with the new wave (Dinah) peacefully if only they look for those things which they appreciate in each other.

P.S. Who is the stranger on the horse that watches and admires Adam then listens to Dinah preach? This is an element of mystery that is not revealed by the end of book 1.

Everyman: I found Dinah's preaching impressive too, and very authentic. It reminded me of a famous Methodist, Socialist, Pacifist, Sir Donald Soper, who used to preach at Hyde Park Corner when I first came to London 40 years ago. He was called 'the last Wesleyan'. Eliot's research certainly paid off.

Kester: I'm pleased you can 'hear' the Warwickshire dialect). Mrs Poyser is partly modelled on GE's mother and is a very 'warm' character. I wouldn't like to be at the sharp end of her tongue though!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/coventry/content...