Cafe Libri discussion

For discussions concerning November's book of the month The Lemon Tree: An Arab, a Jew, and the Heart of the Middle East by Sandy Tolan.

Aerin wrote: "I've seen a few comments that this might be a little tough to get through..."

The comments imply the book is dry? I believe someone in Yahoo Cafe Libri recommended this title...maybe Marge? I don't remember her comments implying that it was a dry book or difficult to grasp the concepts about.

Aerin wrote: "At the rate I'm working on Ivanhoe, I might still be reading Ivanhoe in November, LOL. :) "

I'll be in the same boat, lol! :)

I read the first few pages this morning, mostly to refresh my memory of what the book is about since in the meanwhile I read a review of the movie by the same title, which seems to have a totally different plot. Do they just happen to have the same title and be about the same subject or are they more closely related?

Appears there are only 260 pages of text prior to the acknowledgments, bibliography, etc. so not a door stopper but non-fiction always seems like a more difficult and challenging read. Also I like the maps at the beginning to help with the geography.

No, I'm just preparing to read the book, which I have checked out of the library and now need to return.... Hoping to get a copy from a different library soon though.

Catherine wrote: "No, I'm just preparing to read the book, which I have checked out of the library and now need to return.... Hoping to get a copy from a different library soon though."

I'm planning to check a copy out from my library. Not sure if I will have the time to read it, though. I'm just getting started on Ivanhoe again, lol!

Catherine wrote: "I read the first few pages this morning, mostly to refresh my memory of what the book is about since in the meanwhile I read a review of the movie by the same title, which seems to have a totally different plot. Do they just happen to have the same title and be about the same subject or are they more closely related"

The 2008 Israeli movie, Lemon Tree, is not based on Sandy Tolan's book, The Lemon Tree. I read Tolan's book several years ago and found it easy to read, and a very interesting and poignant story of two families at the beginning of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Marge

Aerin wrote: "I finally looked at the book at the library yesterday and it looks really good, so I'm torn now about trying to squeeze it in for November. The narrative style looks appealing!"

What other books are you reading this November? You can always start it and see if the narrative style engages you enough to finish it that month.

Wow, Aerin, the World Without End alone could fill up a reading month. I've been wanting to read that one since I finished The Pillars of the Earth. I'm hoping that Lemon Tree is going to be a one week read, or stretch it out to a few weeks and read some other books on the side.

Aerin wrote: "The books I'm working on for November are Bless Me, Ultima (booksamonth), World Without End (sequeal to Pillars of the Earth), Ivanhoe, The Girl Who Played with Fire and I'm still trying to finish ..."

Wow! Go you, lol! I'm probably not going to tackle my September Banned Book read for a while. I want to finish Ivanhoe and The Girl Who Played with Fire though. Good luck with all the reading!

Ah, that makes more sense, lol!

Chap. 4, page 54. Thoughts so far:
First chapter was interesting as 3 cousins travel to al-Ramla in 1967 where they had lived ~20 years previously. Bashir and Dalia about to meet. Second chapter reverts to 1930s when the house with the Lemon Tree was built. Setting stage with history of that era.

After reading the first chapter fairly quickly had hoped to do a chapter a day, but had to re-read Chap. 3 after realizing I had absorbed very little of the content regarding Jews in Bulgaria (where Dalia's family originated) during WW2. Now on Chapter 4, dealing with increasing violence of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict.

The historical parts (which are perhaps the bulk of the book?) move more slowly and I have to take notes in order to keep myself paying attention and resist the urge to skim and get back to the interactions between Dalia and Bashir. I'll be interested in what others think!

I'm not planning to read this one after all. There was only a one week rental for the book, and I am behind in other reading. Guess I can always pick this one up later. Let me know what shelves I should mark the book as once members are done. :)

SPOILER ALERT
mid Chap. 4, possible SPOILER ALERT which brings up the question -- can a non-fiction book of history (with an index) have "spoilers?" Perhaps my reaction to the book could be considered a spoiler.

Aerin wrote: "Here's a web page showing the house referred to in The Lemon Tree and a photo of Bashir and Dalia.

http://sandytolan.com/the-lemon-tree/open-house-ramle"
Arein, great link! Interesting and good to have visuals of the main characters -- even if dated in the "future." I'm enjoying the history, it's an era and place I don't recall much from my school days and haven't read any non-fiction historical books about that area/era recently. I especially liked learning about WW2 from the Bulgarian point of view and the beginnings of the 1948 conflict.

As for "homeland" it's hard for me to imagine a place with that much history. No wonder they feel attached. But like many other urbanites I live in a place (and culture) where there is NOT that type of history and no compelling reason/desire to return to the homeland of my ancestors, if, I could decide which ancestor.... Might be a good reason to do a lot of traveling, before or after the research.

Aerin wrote: "Will do! I'm hoping to get through this one before the month is out, but I do have quite a few books I'm working on at one time, so we'll have to see. I hope you do find time to pick it up later ..."

Thanks for the recommendation, Aerin. Maybe I will purchase it on my Nook if it's available at a decent price. I should probably finish "Ivanhoe" on there first, though. LOL! I'm just not that engaged in it atm.

Aerin, sorry to misspell your name -- didn't notice the typo until the message came back to me in the email update.
Adrianna, I was reading about your rating system and then got sidetracked by lunch.com which I'd never heard of before. Looks full of time-consuming fascinations.

Catherine wrote:"Adrianna, I was reading about your rating system and then got sidetracked by lu..."

LOL! Yeah, Lunch can and will take up a lot of your time if you're not careful. I love it, though! The ability to review anything and everything all in one place...it's just too tempting to pass on! Plus, we have a Cafe Libri on Lunch Community that I maintain. It's just another venue to get our reading group's name out there!

Back to the original purpose of your perusal, what did you think of my rating system? I had a long discussion with the hubby on the best way to convert how I felt through all the sites I review at. :)

Adrianna, I like your rating system and how you were able to devise a way to use it across the spectrum of communities. I was curious about the Lunch rating system but haven't actually found a link which explains what the minus numbers indicate -- other than degrees of negative response I assume. I'm going to move more discussion of lunch etc. to your profile though since I feel like I'm getting off track here. Possible SPOILER ALERT follows In a book related note though I finished Chapter 6 this morning, and am currently feeling sympathy for the Palestinians.

Catherine wrote: "Adrianna, I like your rating system and how you were able to devise a way to use it across the spectrum of communities."

Yeah, we did get a little off-topic, lol! I'll continue this discussion with you privately. :)

Hello everyone :D , I am new here , I was following this discussion (Thanks to Catherine) but I did not have a chance to post before , I hope you do not mind me joining you without previous introduction :o

I am Egyptian , so I can not be neutral as everyone reads this book here , also pardon me if I may mention Egypt a lot in my posts , but it is a matter of fact that Palestine history and Egypt’s are connected .

Now ..I am in the middle of the 3rd chapter (Jews in Bulgaria & Nazi policy) , but reading will be more slow during the holidays ..

So regarding the introduction:
- I liked the policy of the author to be fair and try to tell each side story by the way he sees it , also it was very clever of the author to include the maps in the beginning of the book , the Arab Palestine we used to know , then 1947 partition plan and 2005 map to see the development without event telling historical events , by observing the last one I guess any one can sense the complicated condition of west bank with all the Israeli settlements in it and that (Gaza & west bank) are totally separated by Israel .

regarding chapter 1:
The general atmosphere , moving from Bashir to Dalia’s thoughts , introducing what kind of personality Dalia is , was very good opening & made me accept the next long historical trip ..

regarding chapter 2:
It was a good brief historical review through Arabic eyes ..

By Arien : (I picked up that the Arabs didn't trust the British and wanted them out of Palestine as well. )

Yes , we were under occupation ; Palestine & also Egypt were British colonies , all our concerns at that era was to get rid of the British , even some Arabs tried to back Germany to get rid of the British & their control !

Beside the historical facts you noticed , to understand the mutual violet resistance causes more , imagine being an Arab and that you are only occupied by foreigners , not only that but you are sold to be a new state for other foreigners !

*I have a note here :
Before the establishment of Israel: European Jews (Ashkenazi Jews?) were foreigner immigrants to us , while Arab Jews (Mizrahi Jews / sometimes also called Sephardi) - like Mr.Solli in the book - were part of the Arab community as same as Christian Arabs.

I quote this from an interview about Joel Beinin and his book ( The Dispersion of Egyptian Jewry)
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21...

(For some reason, many Westerners fail to recognise the distinction Egyptians and Arabs make between Judaism and Zionism. The general Arab viewpoint is that a Jew who chooses to live in Israel, actively participating in that state's aggressive military machinery, is a Zionist, and thus it is not a case of "minimising the distinction between Jews and Zionists," as Beinin argues, but rather that between Israelis and Zionists. Israel is the real problem and not Jews, and it is indeed a historical to suggest that Arabs can deal with Israeli nationals who lived in the Arab world before the creation of the state of Israel in isolation from the ongoing aggressive military drive of that state.)

Aerin wrote: "Here's a web page showing the house referred to in The Lemon Tree and a photo of Bashir and Dalia.
http://sandytolan.com/the-lemon-tree/..."

Thank you so much for that :D

- For the discussion questions that were posted , they are interesting ,but I do not think I will be able to get involved with these questions atmosphere before reaching chapter (9) , where the historical background ends and Bashir & Dalia meet .

*******
Again I hope you do not mind me joining you and sorry for the long post ..:)

Through Chapter 7, page 122. POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERTS

Nile Daughter, glad you decided to join and share your comments with us. You make some interesting points and it is good to have someone with better local knowledge and a different viewpoint. As you mentioned, I also like the alternative chapters dealing with the alternating viewpoints. I think that helps us gain sympathy (or would that be empathy) with both sides although I can see why the Israeli military (Zionist?) viewpoint might be a bit different. I'm not sure I totally understand your paragraph about Israelis, Zionists, and Jews. It's your opinion that all Israelis are Zionists or only those who understand (and therefore continue to support) the militaristic mentality? I know very little about the political situation in Israel so don't know how or if it can be compared to political groups/movements in the US which might help me understand.

Some other random thoughts I've had which I'll throw in here is the comparison of the Jews taking over Palestine with the Europeans taking over North America with much more land to work with, the problems caused by colonialism, and likewise problems caused by religious beliefs and persecutions. It would seem that the US and Israel both suffer from "Exceptionalism." Why can't we all just get along? Sounds so simple yet history shows peaceful times are few and far between as empires come and go.

message 30: by Nile daughter Nov 11, 2010 12:54am. I quote this from an interview about Joel Beinin and his book The Dispersion of Egyptian Jewry: Culture, Politics and the Formation of a Modern Diaspora....

Nile Daughter, I must apologize for not reading your message more closely before I responded. First of all, I should have included the part of your message which I was questioning and secondly it appears that my question is about the quote which you included from the interview with Joel Beinin. He must have an interesting perspective. Please excuse my hasty question.

Catherine and Arien ,
Thank you so much for the worm welcome & comments , I am honored to be with you here , it is going to be very interesting to me how people who are outside the picture see things :)

Catherine

It is ok, I know that the quote may seem blurry , but I did not want to edit or manipulate since the words are not mine , So I am sorry if I presented in the wrong way , I am very much anxious to read the book myself , any way here is the article I quoted from if you are interested in reading it :

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/747/b...

." Why can't we all just get along? Sounds so simple yet history shows peaceful times are few and far between as empires come and go.

True , I guess by the end of the book we can discuss this more ..


Arien

I think the book will continue with me into December too :)

For (the distinctions you mention between Judaism and Zionism) , yes a lot of people do not know about that , even do not know that (Jewish anti-Zionism ) even exists ,for example :

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

or that Arabs are Semites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_...

I guess a lot of issues about the middle east can be confusing to outsiders !

See you after the holidays ..:)

SPOILER ALERT! PAGE 163, END OF CHAPTER 9.

Just posted my status update: Finished chapter 9 and finally the two major characters are having some interaction. Moved into more current history with 1967's 6-Day War which strengthened the Israeli position in the area and caused the Palestinians to feel an even greater loss of their homeland and made them realize that the Arab world would not be able to help them regain that homeland. They are on their own.

Finished! Posted my review here.

Found a great review and summary of a library group's discussion of this book at RA FOR ALL blog. The best part I thought was the mention of several other related fiction and non-fiction books. Among which are You Don't Have to Be Wrong for Me to Be Right: Finding Faith Without Fanaticism, and Three Cups of Tea: One Man's Mission to Promote Peace... One School at a Time. Fiction books by Amos Oz and The Septembers of Shiraz by Dalia Sofer as well as "Joe Sacco's extraordinary graphic novel Palestine, now with an expanded edition. This work is a series of illustrated interviews with Palestinian refugees."

I'd like to be able to make some comments here.....

(but I'm still in the very early pages of the book).

My first thought is that this is a nicely researched and as-far-as-humanly-possible attempt to portray both the historical facts and the human angles. I'm enjoying the double POVs and the restraint.

I am back to the book finally :)

I finished chapter three , it was very informative & new to me , I wish there were less names because I felt lost ! generaly it covered the Jews situation in Bulgaria very well since Othman empire until Nazi influence ..

Catherine :
Thank you so much for the blog link , I read it & liked it , BTW (Sorry for being out of Topic) , I already own (three cups of tea) and want to read (The September of Shiraz) cause I became very curious about Iran lately ! I read (Half of a yellow sun) ..I liked a lot , it was a very informative historical novel about civil war in Naigeria , very interesting one if you are ever interested in Africa ..
For (Palestine) , it seems very interesting too , Edward W. Said's name attracts me like magnet any where even though I still did not read for him and he is only forwarding here !


G N
I am so glad that anther reader joined us (even though I am new myself) :p , BTW ..I noticed your review’s discussion and I wanted to note that ( the lemon tree ) book and ( a lemon tree) movie are not related ..

I'm not reading this book, but I'm attaching the tags for it on our group's bookshelf. What country or countries should I add to this nonfiction piece?

Thanks for the help, members!

Adrianna wrote: "I'm not reading this book, but I'm attaching the tags for it on our group's bookshelf. What country or countries should I add to this nonfiction piece?

Definitely Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Bulgaria, Egypt.
Possibly also Lebanon, Syria, Turkey.
Even smaller role played by Tunisia and Cyprus where Bashir goes while in exile but otherwise they are not mentioned.

Nile Daughter, what do you think?

Catherine wrote: "Nile Daughter, what do you think?

..."
You are the one who finished the book ;)

I can not add any more countries ..:D (Palestine,Israel,Egypt,Jordan..etc).. it seems The (Middle east)as a whole , I guess this is what the conflict is - in fact !

Adrianna:
Do you need just countries or terms too ? cause you can add : Zionism , British colonization ,nazism , WW2..etc

*****
Now I am in the middle of chapter 4 , I will try to be a faster reader next week & post some comments ..

I finished chapter 5 (Emigration)

Well… I honestly felt empathy with Jews in chapter 3 (rescue) , I do not need to read more about the Holocaust in details to feel the horror they have been through , what happened by the Nazi was a crime – no doubt , by chapter 4 (expulsion) ; with the two chapters after each other , I see literally what Albert Einstein quote: "It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews." In chapter 5 (Emigration) ; I still do not understand how the motto (land without people for people without land) was really believable ? from anther side I was surprised to read about the binational idea and (Brit shalom) and the coexistence ideas from all the beginning ! when I heard about (Israteen) by Moammar al-Qaddafi , we were al laughing , but now I really wonder what would it be like if that what happened then ?!

I can understand Arabs believes & Zionists , but really could not anyone outside that bloody picture see a better solution than what the UN voted for ?!

Nile Daughter, glad you are back into reading and posting about this book. Yes, it is easy to feel compassion for both sides and to understand why the Jews would feel so paranoid but it is hard to understand why they became such bullies toward the Palestinians. There has been so much violence that they feel they have to protect themselves from the terrorists and everyone suffers as a result. I think one of the themes is that there are good and bad people on both sides of the issue. Hope I'm not spoiling anything yet to come....

I'm loving Palestinian Walks: Forays into a Vanishing Landscape by Raja Shehadeh as a follow-up and also want to read books by Joe Sacco and looking forward to I Saw RamallahMourid Barghouti too.

Catherine
Thanks for your post , and do not worry you are not spoiling anything for me :).

There has been so much violence that they feel they have to protect themselves from the terrorists and everyone suffers as a result

Now , I can understand that as an explanation - but for me - definitely not as an excuse .

One of the most important quotes by (Aharon Ciziling) about the enemies Israel was building evry day by her hands by her policy .

I think one of the themes is that there are good and bad people on both sides of the issue

True ...I can see that ,it is a very important point , but it is so so sad that the balanced ones are always the minority to achieve the effective change ,The Bitter Truth is : until today the only elements that are feeded on both sides are: hatred and fanaticism .


***********
I finished chapter 6 (Refuge), it is realy painful to go through all these details , I need to read more .

I hope you will like the books :)

Catherine wrote: "Adrianna wrote: "I'm not reading this book, but I'm attaching the tags for it on our group's bookshelf. What country or countries should I add to this nonfiction piece?

Definitely Israel, Palesti..."

Thanks for all the country references. Will add them now.

Nile daughter wrote: "I can not add any more countries ..:D (Palestine,Israel,Egypt,Jordan..etc).. it seems Th..."

I'm just adding countries. I try to keep the shelves pretty basic without congesting them with ideas/themes. I'll just add each country individually rather than catalog them as "the middle east" since that is not a country. The country reference helps me and others remember the setting of fiction and nonfiction books, which can be really useful.

Thanks for the help, everyone! I tagged the book as follows on our shelf: read, non-fiction, bulgaria, israel, jordan, egypt, palestine. :)