Terminalcoffee discussion

Ok, yesterday at a work meeting the facilitator asked everyone to mention a book they read over the last six months. About thirty people were in attendance, almost all people I like and respect. However, they read some of the shittiest books, mostly crappy spinning airport rack titles and whatever. I know this will sound horribly snotty, but I don't care.

Do you think less of people when they tell you they read shitty books?

Honestly, my knee-jerk reaction to someone raving about, say, Jodi Piccoult or *gagging slightly* Nicholas Sparks is one of amused contempt, BUT I've read and enjoyed plenty of books which others might consider "shitty", so I try not to be judgemental. I am not always successful.

People said BOTH Jodi Piccoult and Nicolas Sparks, yesterday, Mary!

And Twilight?

I don't judge people for reading shitty books. I judge them if they don't realize they're shitty.

I love horror movies, good, bad, indifferent. But I know the difference between them!

Rebecca wrote: "I don't judge people for reading shitty books. I judge them if they don't realize they're shitty.

This, exactly. I can't tell y'all how many times* I've heard "OMG, you have to read Blah-de-Blah Blah, it's amazing [first clue it will be anything but]!" and when I do a little research I find out it's a smutty bodice-ripper or a time-travelling, possibly vampire-infested, romance novel.




*Ok, I'll tell you--at least once a week.

Well I like Jodi Piccoult and I'm sure enough of my own intellect not to care who knows or what they think.

I read lots of shitty books and enjoy them immensely. So no, I wouldn't think less of someone else for doing the same. And I don't really care if other people think less of me because of what I read, their opinion won't make me enjoy the books any less. :)

I think the word "shitty" is very subjective.

Sandy, Jodi Picoult is one of my favorite authors.

Alecia, I also read all genres of books. If others don't like what I'm reading, nobody's forcing them to read them.

What Misha said!

Yes, I agree with what Rebecca said, too. I guess I'm saying (badly) that people, of course, can read whatever they want and shouldn't give a shit what I say, but when I encounter people who think that the height of literature is some bad beach book they read over the summer, I'm not sure what to say but I can acknowledge deep in my dark heart I'm thinking "You are not one of us". Maybe people who listen to classical music or whatever feel the same way when I say I don't mind Hanson. That's ok with me. What threw me about yesterday in the meeting was the fact that people were oohing and ahhing over these shitty books as if they were great literature. It felt like how some of you've described baby showers. I think part of that was this was the first time this facilitator has worked a meeting and people were feeling each other out. But I wanted to barf. I can't lie. I read some light material too, I imagine all of us do, but I know it's light, know what I'm getting from it, and don't pretend otherwise.

But then I don't go around pushing them on people saying oh wow you just have to read this badly written badly edited thing with the major holes in its plot and the wooden characters.

Yeah, that's how I felt...like people were saying, "oh, isn't this writer great? Don't we all agree? Let us all lend these bad books to each other." They're actually compiling a list for distribution. Fuck that shit.

Phil wrote: "And Twilight?"

I can explain that.

:)

Hm. That's interesting, Misha. Good points. And yes, I think I often feel out of the loop at these meetings, by the way, because I'm usually one of the youngest people and one of the only guys. So maybe this was more of my feeling out of the community than anything. And since these aren't people with similar backgrounds, of different ages, gender, etc., I can't expect them to perceive literature the same way, and I don't, I want to make clear, think I have a monopoly on evaluating literature. I want to think on this a bit more.

(But they read really shitty books, and they sound like that's all they read, I'm not kidding...:)

I can understand that, BunWat. Diverse tastes rock when it comes to literature and music. This is good, since both mediums have the potential to energise the soul.

I think less of their taste (not them as humans) if they read only shitty books. (They could read nothing but Nicholas Sparks and still be wonderful people who volunteer, serve the poor, house the homeless, are Jesuslike, etc.) I tend to think more highly of people who read a wide variety of stuff and are not snobs about reading genre works, or even shitty works. If someone is such a snob that they will only read Shakespeare, Milton, and Donne, I will actually think less of them than if they read Shakespeare, Milton, Donne, John le Carre, and Harlequin romances. I tend to think of people who read widely and diversely as being more human and more interesting. But I might be biased, because I read pretty widely and diversely myself.

I figure people who love that stuff just haven't discovered better books yet. The great thing about working at the library is exposure to a wide variety of books, but some people shockingly never visit the library or even decent bookstores.

I like to see people reading, and I try not to curl my lip when it's what I consider junk.
Ooooh, Snookie has a book coming out.

>>The great thing about working at the library is exposure to a wide variety of books<<

This is the reason I am glad to be part of a book discussion group. I read the assigned books whether or not I want to simply to be able to contribute to the discussion. A case in point is Devil in the White City by Eric Larson.I would never have picked it off a library book shelf but because I read it for the discussion, I gained so much enjoyment from learning about the 1893 Chicago World's Fair and life during those times.

I should also add that I think less of somebody's literary taste if they don't know they're reading shitty books. There's a woman I know who is a great political activist and worker for justice. She testified before the EPA about something this week. I admire her to hell and back about all sorts of things, but she thinks Twilight is the livin' end. It's worth noting that she doesn't read novels, which I think has something to do with it. I have no idea what convinced her to pick this one up. My neice also loves the Twilight books, but she's eleven and these are the first thing she's read beyond chapter books. So good for her, and I love how she argues with me about it! She holds her own at least as well as the adults who love it.

But I'm afraid I have to say that I really don't think "shitty" is subjective. That was sort of my point. Taste certainly is, but there actually are standards, you know, about how to write well.

Lobstergirl wrote: "I think less of their taste (not them as humans) if they read only shitty books. (They could read nothing but Nicholas Sparks and still be wonderful people who volunteer, serve the poor, house the..."

Couldn't agree more.

Although I enjoy reading truly fine books, I also like being able to understand what people are talking about when they mention things like Twilight or Dan Brown, neither of which is necessarily great literature but worth knowing about if you want to engage with today's culture.

Sometimes I think of it this way: if I had lived in the 19th century and read only canonical works from the past--Shakespeare and Milton and classics in Greek and Latin--I would have missed out on Wilkie Collins and H. Rider Haggard, who were immensely popular but were often put down as simple-minded entertainers by people with "elevated" taste.

So, as Lobstergirl said, it's great to read a diverse range of books--Philip Roth and Stephenie Meyer, Haruki Murakami and Stieg Larson, etc.

When I was younger and thought I could read everything I wanted, I used to be that way, but I'm a hardass now. Life is too short. I had a job in audiobooks and I read professionally, so that had the effect of both greatly expanding my reading interests (and interests in general) and reducing my tolerance for what I don't like. For so many genres and so many authors, you just feel like you're reading the same book over and over. And over and over and over. And over! There's just too much out there that does interest me! If somebody gives me something, I'll read it, and I will read professionally, but outside of that, I don't see any openings in the schedule.

Fair enough. A lot of genre fiction, especially, can be repetitive.

I was riding today, and one of my friends was struggling on the hills. I dropped back to encourage her, and to distract her from the effort of climbing, by talking about books. We have almost no commonality of taste in fiction, but each of us could still appreciate the other's interest in, and love of, reading.

Stephenie Meyer and Jody Picault indeed!

I seldom judge what other people read. Many non-readers have criticized MY reading, so I am not into that sort of thing. As long as I can read what I want, they can read what they want.

Admittedly, it seriously DOES puzzle me how anyone can not read at all. Lots of people do not read for pleasure--how do they stand it?

I had eye surgery and could not read for three weeks till everything healed and I missed reading so much. (This was years ago before audiobooks were readily available.)

No offense to RA and others who have expressed otherwise, but it smells a little like book-snobbery to look down on someone because they like something you deem "not good enough".

I'm ok with that. I think I can express this a little better after thinking this through...although I go back to Rebecca's point about people thinking bad books are the height of good literature as key here. I appreciate when people read a wide variety of books...but when people only read airport-rack spinners and then pronounce them great books I assume an incomplete knowledge of books and want to say "you don't know what you're talking about...books are important to me and pronouncing that crap as great literature or devaluing great books as 'too hard' or 'snobbish' shows you don't know what you're talking about and smacks of reverse snobbery."

There are areas about which I don't know much (e.g. economics) that I'd like to learn more about and might cause similar eye-rolling were I to speak about them around people who cared about them...so I don't, like, yell at people who read bad books or anything. I don't care that much. I just smile politely and back away Like Misha said a while ago, too, maybe I'm misreading intention and someone saying a shitty book is "great" might be more casual than anything.

I'm just happy that people are reading. What I react negatively to (internally) is when people say "I don't read." Believe it or not, I hear that in bookstores when I'm doing signings.
L.J.
Secrets to Die For
The Baby Thief
The Sex Club
The Suicide Effect
Thrilled to Death

I really do not care what people read. Some people just need a release, and if reading smut does that for them, then more power to them. I usually read for entertainment, some times for knowledge. But they are what I want to read, so do not care how others feel about it.

I really like what Jonathan said about "being able to understand what people are talking about when they mention things like Twilight or Dan Brown." I read some popular books that I normally might not pick on my own just to see what all the hubbub is about (The Shack, Eat Pray Love, Twilight).
I used to prejudge people a bit (I'll admit it) when they would mention their favorite authors or books and in my mind I had shelved those as "easy reads." Recently, a friend of mine insisted that I read the Sookie Stackhouse series. I enjoyed it, but would shelve it as an "easy read." I suggested the same friend read The World According to Garp and she now thinks that I might be demented. She thought Garp was "too real" and thus not an escape or enjoyable for her.
I've calmed down a bit on judging people for waht they read because I don't want people to judge me for what I read. I'd rather spend my time judging people that don't read. :)

>>I'm just happy that people are reading.<<

That sums up my feelings about the subject. I have grandchildren who are non-readers and some who read extensively. They are not allowed to say, "I'm bored" when they visit. I tell them to learn to enjoy reading. Then they will never be bored.

Nope. I think less of book snobs that think a book has to have some deep meaning in order to be good.

:)

Reading is entertainment for me, not unlike watching a movie.

The above comment was joking, in case someone took me as pissed off.

I'm having a "let the fingers fly" day on the keyboard, saying whatever pops into my head first.

I think a perhaps overlooked factor in “book snobbery” or for that matter music or film “snobbery” is that often it is a somewhat fearful reaction to the perceived, though not real possibility (I hope) that purely popular entertainment, or popular art will totally supplant the idiosyncratic, challenging, unconventional or more fully artistic (iow, created with little regard for its purely commercial value) work. This is nothing new, and Dwight MacDonald famously wrote about it in his 1960 “Masscult and Midcult” essay.

Though unquestionably for some people being snooty is simply a personal characteristic, another kind of snobbery derives from a protective instinct or profound passion (I think).

Personally, I don’t care what people read, so long as they look good and like to drink.

Okay, I've just done a book comparision between RA's bookshelves and mine. We have 11 books in common. Does that by definition mean according to RA I read shitty books?

Yay, *High five* Barb, we can skuttle off and read our shitty books together. :D

Bun and I have 5 in common, though I have only 44 total.

Sarah Pi and I have 80 books in common.
Bun and I have 25 books in common.

That book comparison thing isn't really accurate for me as one of my shelves is "will never read."

I have
179 books in common with Sarah Pi
124 with Bun
118 with Gretchen
104 with Lobstergirl
87 with Gail
44 with RA
41 with Barb
and 10 with Phil
But the high numbers are partly because I have a lot of books listed.

Jackie you have just validated 26.28% of my library with a compatibility of 75%. Yay, I have some cred.

I came into this group thinking you were asking defensively, meaning do we think others judge us if we pull out a crappy book. I get worried about that all the time, which is totally stupid. But when someone asks what I'm reading and it's some cheesy space opera or supermarket murder mystery I'm a little embarrassed. I know I shouldn't be, but I am. When people ask what book I read last, I sometimes skip back to something more solid that I read recently. Is anyone else as insecure as I am about this?

Oh god yes, that's me Kelly, guilty.

I read everything, really. Bestsellers, genre literature, classics, kids books, nonfiction, if it looks good, I'll try it.

I must admit, I've never read any Nicholas Sparks, and Twilight wasn't that exciting to me. I read a lot of vampire stories, and Twilight wasn't what I want from that genre. Plus, it needs editing, it's overwritten. ;)

Don't feel bad about what you like.

I used to be more insecure, but one of the great things about goodreads is that you can find whole groups of people that read what you like to read and get hyped about it along with you.

I LOVE young adult fiction, and even belong to a group that caters to adult lovers of YA fiction. YA has gotten me back into the sci-fi and fantasy genres, when in the past I would sometimes find the books to be too dry or tedious to read in the adult medium (depending on author of course). There was a point when I felt embarrassed to tell someone that I was reading a romance or paranormal book but not anymore. Reading is fun and it takes me to an imaginary place (I lived in my imagination as a kid).

Some people read in the quest to keep learning, and that's GREAT for them. If I ever go back to college at some point, then that day will come for me. Right now I'm just having fun reading for the heck of it.

I always get the impression that you are pretty confident about most things Bun. And yes that is a good thing.

Gail "cyborg" wrote: "Okay, I've just done a book comparision between RA's bookshelves and mine. We have 11 books in common. Does that by definition mean according to RA I read shitty books?"

Yes. Anyone who reads books other than is reading shitty books.

(kidding, kidding...)

BunWat wrote: "Thanks Jim, its been a long hard road to get here, but the view is pretty nice."

I'm glad! :)

Some time ago, when I told someone I read mostly just bestsellers and that I didn't read to learn, I read just for fun, he said to me, "You learn something from everything you read". I find that to be true. I now read a mixture, owing in part to my participation in my book discussion group.

I'll admit that I'm initially more interested in readers, and then readers of the same persuasion as me. But note I have been married 25 years to a guy who doesn't read anything but magazines. These days it's New York Mag and TV Guide. He watches TV constantly, and I think of it as the Brain Drain. :) So obviously I don't let my own tastes dictate what I think of someone.

Yet usually people who ONLY read shitty books as we're defining it (badly written, stale genre writing) are very different from me. And yes, I guess inside I'm snobby, but I probably don't have much in common. THis doesn't mean that they are bad people, which is really the only thing that matters to me bottom line.

I know people judge me for loving sci fi, fantasy - what I call speculative fiction.

But hey I read shitty books, when you're in the mood for a popcorn book there's nothing as cozy!

It wasn't that long ago that I read mostly magazines, with some nonfiction books thrown in. I wasn't that interested in fiction. Now, when I reach for a book it's much more likely to be fiction.

I attribute it to a weakness of character.

I have a friend who teaches writing at a state university. When his first entry level class came in on the first day in a FICTION WRITING class, he made them go around the room and introduce themselves and say a book they had read and liked recently. Half of them couldn't name one. He tried again with "Ok, maybe you didn't like it?" and "OK, not recently...just the last book you read?" and still got blank stares.

I try not to judge but I'll admit sometimes I do. If I start to judge I remind myself of John's class and that at least they're reading.

And the stupid e-readers keep me from browsing what people are reading!