Wild Things: YA Grown-Up discussion

Alyson (Kid Lit Frenzy) suggested pursuing our discussion of Philip Pullman elsewhere than on the What Are You Reading Now? list. So here goes.

We were talking about the ending of the last book of the His Dark Materials trilogy. I wrote: "The end of the Pullman trilogy was a clincher for me. Although I would have wished it otherwise. The whole world conspired to make their love for each other impossible leaving us in a universe suffused with a yearning that hurts and moves and nourishes at the same time."

To which she replied: "...still have some questions about the ending."

If you have comments about the Pullman trilogy, don't hesitate to join us in our discussion.

Amy wrote: "I haven't read any of his other stuff. "

I can highly recommend The Ruby in the Smoke and the other three books in the Sally Lockhart series. Set in 1881 the story is about the adventures of an enterprising young woman called Sally Lockhart. It's an exciting, gripping read that is somewhat lighter than His Dark Materials.

See I'm definitely interested in reading his other stuff but find it hard to read things set in a historical period or where there's a lot of dialogue that is written with accents.

***** Spoilers ahead ******

Thanks Alan for setting this up. Okay, maybe you can explain a few things to me regarding the 3rd book in Pullman's His Dark Materials Trilogy (btw, it has been a long time since I read them)...I think part of my weirdness about the ending had more to do with what I thought/felt was the ages of the children. Lyla was 12 in the first book and Will about a year older. The books seem to follow sequentially and didn't seem to cover that many years. Hence it seemed like they would be about 13/14 in the last book. Yet, if I remember correctly the love/relationship seemed to be sexual - maybe I interpreted this wrong. Additionally the whole pod thing (sorry it's been awhile) was somewhat confusing - I couldn't figure out if there was an environmental message Pullman was trying to get across as well. What was I missing?

Amy wrote: "See I'm definitely interested in reading his other stuff but find it hard to read things set in a historical period or where there's a lot of dialogue that is written with accents."

Accents? I presume you're referring to Jim, the London office boy in Ruby in the Smoke. I'm intrigued to know more about what disturbs you. Especially as I sometimes use such an approximation of spoken English in my novels.

Historical period? I wonder what it is about the historical setting that holds you back. Personally I don't get the impression that the historical context (in this book) prevents the reader getting into the story. But that's just me.

Alyson (Kid Lit Frenzy) wrote: "***** Spoilers ahead ******

Thanks Alan for setting this up. Okay, maybe you can explain a few things to me regarding the 3rd book in Pullman's His Dark Materials Trilogy (btw, it has been a long..."

***** Possible spoilers ahead ******

The age of the children? I can only guess from personal experience - my novels are also YA. Is it possible that some writers whose main characters are teenagers describe a sort of 'archetypal' young adult who is a blend of innocence and experience of an indiscernible age somewhere between 12 and 16 without bothering too much about the subtle changes that go on between these two ages? A sort of fairytale, make-believe creature of the in-between? That fact in the Pullman novels did not disturb me because I recognised and resonated with that archetype but I see how comparing such characters to the 'real' world could put the reader off. Just like we accept the faerie or other Otherworldly characters in fantasy novels, we are asked to accept the "in-between ager". In fact, I wonder if such a being is not present in much YA fiction....

Confusion? Pullman, as far as I remember, is never explicit about how the two re-inact the original sin, but it's clear they do. He pulls a literary veil over the whole thing and leaves it to our imagination as they wander through the woods. Could that be where the confusion came in? Maybe his precautions seem misplaced in a society where every detail is laid bare...

Alan - It was pretty clear in the first book that Lyra was 12. And I think that was significant because her daemon had not formed a permanent shape yet due to her age. Also the experiments were being performed on children of a certain age. So I don't think it was something that was intended to present this vague place between 12 to 16. Also developmentally the 4 years between 12 to 16 is huge. I would hope that an author writing with those ages in mind would recognize this point. Even in fantasy, there needs to be an element of the realistic to make it "believable".

I agree that Pullman was "vague" but I believe I still remember being someone *shocked* at what he seemed to be suggesting/intimating at/leading the reader to. I couldn't help but feel in book 3 that Pullman just went *some place weird*.

Alyson (Kid Lit Frenzy) wrote: "Alan - It was pretty clear in the first book that Lyra was 12. And I think that was significant because her daemon had not formed a permanent shape yet due to her age. Also the experiments were b..."

Point taken about the age. I stand corrected. Thought I'd found a way out there.

I was neither surprised nor shocked by what happened in the modern day garden of Eden. Pullman had been hinting for quite a while about the children partaking of the tree of knowledge and thus changing the world and loosing their innocence. So when it came to the two innocent but very-much-in-love children sharing the forbidden fruit, albeit under the cover of the forest, that seemed coherent with the story. Did not their act condemn them to subsequently live in suffering, condemned to be separated for all time?

Or is the point you are bringing that such an act is morally unacceptable?

Not morally unacceptable. But for an author who is obviously against traditional Christian beliefs, I am not sure how what you are describing is so different unless you mean Lyra and Will were separated from each other vs from God?!?!

Alyson (Kid Lit Frenzy) wrote: "Not morally unacceptable. But for an author who is obviously against traditional Christian beliefs, I am not sure how what you are describing is so different unless you mean Lyra and Will were sepa..."

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. This is not a fight I want to fight. As a reader of Philip Pullman's books, I immensely enjoyed them and am interested in talking about what I understood and how they affected me but I have no wish to be a scholar of his work or to pretend I know what his intentions were. Sorry Alyson, but I bow out of this particular conversation because it is becoming polarised in a way I feel uncomfortable with.

Accents: any type really. For example, I tried reading the secret garden and couldn't get past the yorkshire accent. Likewise with another book I read where the main character had a scottish accent.

As far as historical, it's just not that thrilling to me. It tends to be a little dull plus it's hard for me to identify with as I live in modern times. It's not for lack of trying. Although I have read other books (ex. Snowflower and the secret fan) and I adored it. I'm willing to try but sometimes just knowing it's a historical piece just puts me off. I also read A Great and Terrible Beauty which was Victorian and just didn't like it. To each their own I suppose.

Amy wrote: "Accents: any type really. For example, I tried reading the secret garden and couldn't get past the yorkshire accent. Likewise with another book I read where the main character had a scottish accent..."

To each his own! Agree entirely. And it's not because you like one book by an author you are necessarily going to enjoy others by that author. As for Pullman, I've read most of his books and enjoyed them all (although with differing intensities).

The period(s) in time portrayed in the Pullman trilogy are interesting though, now that I think about them. Where would you situate the epoch of the various worlds? Some of them can't be compared with Will's (our more or less recent present), but Lyra's world sometimes makes me think of our past (Zeppelins etc...)

Alan wrote: "Alyson (Kid Lit Frenzy) wrote: "Not morally unacceptable. But for an author who is obviously against traditional Christian beliefs, I am not sure how what you are describing is so different unless ..."

Alan - Let me apologize. I had no intention of polarizing anything or fighting anyone. I am truly trying to understand what you were referring to and also understand the conclusion of the book. Thank you for sharing and I will respect your wishes.

Alan wrote: "The period(s) in time portrayed in the Pullman trilogy are interesting though, now that I think about them. Where would you situate the epoch of the various worlds? Some of them can't be compared with Will's (our more or less recent present), but Lyra's world sometimes makes me think of our past (Zeppelins etc...) "
Lyra's world can very easily be described as steampunk, I guess - there's a lot of Zeppelin travel and a great prevalence of technological gadgetry, like the Photo Mill that Lyra remembers seeing once. I would say that she came from a Victorian style era, and yet there's the sense that Will's world is her world as well, with there being the same SP initials carved into stone that she'd witnessed Simon Parslow do herself, back in her world. And then there's the issue of the sled in the museum and the photo of the Samoyed hunters which she recognises as being the exact same ones as those who captured her and took her to Bolvangar.

Caroline wrote: "Alan wrote: "The period(s) in time portrayed in the Pullman trilogy are interesting though, now that I think about them. Where would you situate the epoch of the various worlds? Some of them can't ..."

Thanks Caroline. For me you underline the clever way that Pullman uses the story to make the worlds both different and yet overlapping. What do you think of the world where Lyra and Will first meet. A cross between a small French town on the Mediterranean and a medieval Italian village?

To me Lyra's world always seemed very old fashioned but since the concepts aren't, it's a mix between old and new. There's enough fantasy in there to make it seem so magical (and dark at times). I haven't really given any thought to the other worlds. It's been several years since I've read the series.

Thanks Caroline. For me you underline the clever way that Pullman uses the story to make the worlds both different and yet overlapping. What do you think of the world where Lyra and Will first meet. A cross between a small French town on the Mediterranean and a medieval Italian village?"

I definitely agree with you on the French coastal town, Alan, but I also had a Greek image in there too, that's probably because of the goats cheeses that Mary is given by the elderly couple though...

Alyson (Kid Lit Frenzy) wrote: "Not morally unacceptable. But for an author who is obviously against traditional Christian beliefs, I am not sure how what you are describing is so different unless you mean Lyra and Will were sepa..."

Alyson, I think rather than being against Christian beliefs, Pullman is more against the institution of the Church itself. Throughout his books it is the Magisterium which is shown to be at fault again and again.

I completely understand what you mean about their ages, and it's certainly very indicative that the act of sex is what settles a daemon's form, but I think the reason why Pullman left it up to the reader's imagination is because he wanted us to really focus on what the outcome was, rather than the act itself. His argument seems to be that "innocence" i.e. before the act of 'original sin', is stifling and killing the world - look at the Mulefa's trees. "Experience" however, changes all of that, Dust begins to fall downwards (or is it attracted to the people on the ground again?) and there's a great sense that all life will benefit from it happening.

Thanks Caroline - I think I will be forever confused by Pullman's 3rd book. I really loved the first two books and thought that I was getting where he was going but the third one truly lost me. Currently I am really trying to get through my TBR list so I do not have time to go back and read it and see if I get something new from looking at it again. Maybe at some point. However if I do, I may try to pick up a UK edition I heard the US edition may actually have some things edited out/changed.

How many books are on your tbr list? Curious to find someone who has MORE than I do.

Amy wrote: "How many books are on your tbr list? Curious to find someone who has MORE than I do."

On GoodReads I have about 500 listed. :-) But I do have a stack currently sitting by my bed that probably has 25 in it. Also, I serve on an awards committee and will end up having to read about 175 books (picture, middle grades, and YA) over the next few months.

Wow!

I have only read Northern Lights His Dark Materials 1 but I agree with being a little confused by Pullman's 'message'. I had understood he is an atheist but going by the book I would have assumed he is a theist with a (rather virulent) objection to organised religion.
Not that is bothers me either way but I did find it interesting that this book kept reminding me of Waugh's Brideshead Revisited

Earlier there were comparisons made between Pullman's and Rowling's writing. I got the impression that while Rowling is trying to be intelligent but populist Pullman considers himself an intellectual and therefore writes in an appropriate style. Although I found HP more charming the real reason I enjoyed Northern Lights less was that there wasn't a single character I liked, even Lara was annoying.

Alan wrote: "...I can highly recommend The Ruby in the Smoke and the other three books in the Sally Lockhart series. Set in 1881 the story is ab..."

I read The Tin Princess, another Sally Lockhart, and it was just too light for me. So much so that I nearly didn't read His Dark Materials because of it. Are the others better?

Esther wrote: "I have only read Northern Lights His Dark Materials 1 but I agree with being a little confused by Pullman's 'message'. I had understood he is an atheist but going by the book I would h..."

Hi Esther.
The Tin Princess is probably the lightest of the four, a sort of after thought. But I see what you mean. I am easily carried away by a story so I can enjoy even the lighter ones :-) Trying to think of another author who writes with that depth, I thought of William Horwood. One of his books that talks of a young handicapped girl is Skallagrigg It's an extremely moving story. Unfortunately I think it has long gone out of print. A real shame. Maybe they'll re-print it now he's brought out a new book: Hyddenworld: Spring Bk. 1.

As for the question of religion, I agree with you. I don't think Pullman is against 'God' per se but rather he's ferocious about what certain institutions have done with him/her. I am reminded of a line in a book by Daniel Meurois and Anne Givaudan called De mémoire d'Essénien : L'autre visage de Jésus where Jesus is credited as saying something like: whatever you do, do not make a church of me...

Alyson (Kid Lit Frenzy) wrote: "Amy wrote: "How many books are on your tbr list? Curious to find someone who has MORE than I do."

On GoodReads I have about 500 listed. :-) But I do have a stack currently sitting by my bed that p..."

In another group I have started a challenge to read from my own shelves. At present, with only half my shelves catalogued, I have 200+ on my TBR and for more temptation I work in a library!
In the group my TBR pile is average.

Esther - I try to read from my own shelves but often I get distracted or too eager to read something else. LOL! I work in a school and also try to keep current to share with teachers and students.

Alyson (Kid Lit Frenzy) wrote: "Esther - I try to read from my own shelves but often I get distracted or too eager to read something else. LOL! I work in a school and also try to keep current to share with teachers and students."
I try to alternate one from my shelves one from somewhere else.

I had to create a system so I could give equal time to my to be read shelves. So I read one library book, one I own, and with the ones I own, I rotate around genres so I cover everything!

Hi Heather. So you may be ready for the next two: The Shadow in the North and The Tiger in the Well. There are in fact four books in the series, but the last one, The Tin Princess, is a bit of an after-thought and Sally is almost absent from the book.

Heather wrote: "Thanks Alan. I've added the other two to my ever-growing TBR list. Looks like the fourth stars Adelaide, which might be interesting enough, depending on if she crops up in either of the other two. ..."

I was a bit disappointed as I would have liked a fourth book about Sally but many of the other characters are there ... ands it's up to the standard of the others of the series ... so read on ...

What I would have liked even more than a further book about Sally would have been a new book about Lyra (and I don't mean just fragments) but that seems extremely unlikely.

I just read The Ruby in the Smoke and found it an exciting and excellently written mystery. I truly enjoyed what might be called the "old world" style of writing. Considering this was written well before his other series -- which strongly indicated his atheist point of view -- this feels like something he simply enjoyed writing. I am looking forward to reading the next in the series.

HI Lydia. It was a great book. I too enjoyed reading it. The BBC made it into a film which was not bad either.

Oh, wow, I'll have to try and find that.