Bright Young Things discussion

Lets talk about Woolf, such an amazing author and pretty much an icon of our particular period of interest in literary history...

Some questions...

What do you already know of her?
Do you like her writing?
Do you find her a difficult writer? if so, what is it that influences this for you?
Do you find her an interesting 'character' in 20th Century history?
What do you think she has done for women writers through the generations that followed her?
Can you see her influence anywhere in modern writing?
Which novels of hers are your favourites?
Have you read her essays and non-fiction? what did you think?

She was married to Leonard Woolf
Together they started the Hogarth Press
She had a relationship with Vita Sackville-West
Her sister was painter Vanessa Bell
Brother Thoby died of Typhoid
Nephew Julian died in Spain
Struggled with mental illness
She had a marmoset named Mitz :o)

I have enjoyed the few books I've read - The Voyage Out, Flush: A Biography and Mrs. Dalloway [I greatly enjoyed the film of [book:Orlando|18839] - thought Tilda Swinton was robbed of an Oscar nomination].

I have found her challenging to read. Presently I have To the Lighthouse next to my bed and fully intend to read it.

An interesting character? I'm fascinated be her. Her own contributions to literature are prodigious in their scope and their influence. Then her associations (The Bloomsbury Group), and her conflicted sexuality.

My favorite was Flush: A Biography which I gave to several friends. Probably because it was unexpected and delightful.

I have not read her non-fiction. We selected a book last month, but I ordered volume two instead volume one and never realized it until it arrived.

My only knowledge of Woolf is from reading 'Orlando', and that was because the character was included in Alan Moore's 'League or Extraordinary Gentlemen' comics.
Want to track down the movie.

Sounds like an interesting lady. Now that I'm done with my Oscar Wilde obsession, I'll have to look for her biography.

I've read only Orlando, To the Lighthouse and Mrs Dalloway. TtL was totally lost on me. She's not a favorite. I like my novels with beginning, middle, and end and without the obscurity that became stylish in the '20's. "I dare you to understand my book."

I believe she influenced John Fowles, who wrote 3 endings to the French Lieutenant's Woman. I kept reading them and re-reading them, trying to make some sense, and went away totally confused. 40 years later, I found some articles on the internet explaining it.

I don't know enough post-1940 authors to know who else she influenced. Maybe Thomas Pynchon? I read V. in college and couldn't make any sense of it, and today I don't remember a single word or character in it. So either Faulkner or Woolf could have been his influence.

Nor do I remember anything about To the Lighthouse except that I had seen a PBS version with Rosemary Harris, and there was a scene on a beach.

I just finished Atonement by McEwan, in which we have an unusual twist in the ending, because some of the previous events actually didn't happen. (Not going to repeat the stupidity that someone at another club did, revealing the ending.) Woolf's influence?

Bill wrote: "The Window, the first section, seems to connote a frame or a portrait, as Lilly is attempting, of a moment in time--or a person in time."

Well, that seems right. You cause me to wonder if this internalness, this attempt to get at the workings of the emotional inner self might be why people find Woolf and other writers of the period difficult. The emotional life is not about events per se, but a reflection of them in a shifting medium organized in an associative, accretive way. So the result is a story which is the same.

So a question for everyone: in the years since 1940 have we backed away from this project or assimilated it?

I loved Orlando, which, as unconventional as it was is one of her more accessible works.

Being a, I guess I have to come out, perhaps fanatic Joyce fan, I didn't find Woolfe too difficult.

I really admired Lighthouse, and there was something about the interior monologue of the painter that rang true, most literary portraits of painters are literary and graft a non-visual way of thinking onto them.

Lots of unfulfilled promise in that one. For the characters, not the book, which is pretty poignant. I didn't really think the sentence structures were too convoluted; I think the unfamiliar thing about them is that the sentences are in a state of becoming in the process of their being thought, if that makes any sense.


I remember reading The Waves all night at an IHOP, I couldn't stop, and ran through pot after pot of coffee, not the best way to read a book, perhaps, I think the only book I have read in an all night jag. In that she takes that waves of thought thing pretty far, maybe that was what kept me going. I need to sit down with that one and re-read it thoughtfully.

I need to read Mrs Dolloway. Shame on me.

I didn't know about the marmoset.:)

Haha, I'm wise to you now, Bill :).

I loved ToTL and I distinctly remember the passage you quoted. The words she chose were exquisite, weren't they?

I can't remember the quote but I do remember Mrs Ramsey, so warm and vibrant. ToTL was autobiographical and one gets a strong sense of VW's serene childhood from it, I think.

Maybe we should nominate To the Lighthouse or The Waves to read in April? - the nominations threads are still open (I think!) so hurry.

Ally

there's always next month!

As we're now halfway through April, perhaps we should reopen this discussion to choose a book for our May read? I would nominate "To the Lighthouse" again for sure, and perhaps "The Waves". Or, for something really different, perhaps "The Common Reader" for our May non-fiction read? Thoughts? Thanks!

The poll just finished for our May read and all Woolf fans will be over the moon - the winner of the fiction category for May was Orlando! Happy reading.

Oh, wonderful!! I'm excited to reread "Orlando" again, and actually have a copy already. Great vote outcome. Thanks!

I'll shamelessly say that I've never tried Virginia Woolf so far. If I'm to start what should I read first?

I struggle with Virginia Woolf. However I read Flush in my teens, studied Orlando as part of my BA and read Mrs Dalloway of my own volition. I started, but couldn't finish, Jacob's Room and The Waves. I've enjoyed a lot of her literary criticism, especially A Room of One's Own and The Leaning Tower as I've found that more approachable than her fiction.
I would suggest Mrs Dalloway as a good starting point. It's not too long and taxing, and especially interesting if you live in, or know, London, as you can 'walk' the streets with Clarissa Dalloway.
I've just read Michael Cunningham's The Hours and am tempted to re-read Mrs Dalloway.

Amalie wrote: "I'll shamelessly say that I've never tried Virginia Woolf so far. If I'm to start what should I read first?"

If you wanted to ease your way into reading Woolf, Amalie, you might wish to start with one of her earlier novels, perhaps "The Voyage Out", or "Night and Day". I'm suggesting these because they were written before Woolf's stream-of-consciousness style developed and so both are written in a more usual novelistic style. I'd then move on to a book such as "Mrs. Dalloway", which was written in the beginning of Woolf's movement into her new style.

Amalie, I think you'll find that Woolf is a more accessible writer than you might think. If you have any questions please feel free to post them here or you can email directly. Please give Woolf a shot, OK? Thanks!

I still haven't been able to finish any of her fiction.

I did enjoy when we were reading The Common Reader: First Series, Annotated Edition but it had to go back to the library. So when I saw it while browsing online at Powell's I picked it up.

I haven't read it yet but I have picked it up. That's the first step.

But I still have a way to go in Mrs. Dalloway and I haven't even opened A Room of One's Own yet.

I'm like Amalie. I've never really read anything. Thank you for your suggestion, Ellen, on a good way to start. Jan C, I added The Common Reader to my Amazon list; I'll have to try it soon too.

Amalie wrote: "I'll shamelessly say that I've never tried Virginia Woolf so far. If I'm to start what should I read first?"

I would start with Mrs. Dalloway. That was my first Woolf fiction and I loved it. I read it through in one sitting and when I re-read it recently (also after re-reading The Hours which I cannot recommend highly enough) I found it a bit more difficult to read in bits and pieces but still so beautiful. I am planning to read To the Lighthouse later this year. Even after Mrs. D. I am a bit intimidated by Woolf :).

Jan C wrote: "I still haven't been able to finish any of her fiction.

I did enjoy when we were reading The Common Reader: First Series, Annotated Edition but it had to go back to the library. So ..."

Well, Jan, we each have our own tastes and we have to honor those, you know? I really enjoy reading Woolf's essays a lot, and love her diaries and letters. Have you read any of her diaries or letters? There are some great collections available and it is very interesting to see how witty she can be when she's not writing for publication. She has a wonderful sense of humor that sometimes doesn't come through in her fiction, you know? Thanks!

Ellen wrote: "Jan C wrote: "I still haven't been able to finish any of her fiction.

I did enjoy when we were reading The Common Reader: First Series, Annotated Edition but it had to go back to the ..."

I haven't tried anything else by her yet. But from my reaction to Mrs. Dalloway and to The Common Reader my guess is that I prefer her non-fiction to her fiction. Maybe later I will be able to conquer MD.

I know she has value, I'm just having trouble finding it. But I expect I'll keep trying.

Thanks everyone. I guess I'll start will one of her earlier novels and then move to "Mrs. Dalloway". I once tried "To the Lighthouse" but couldn't get the hang of it then whatever the first book will be I'm definately going to try something before the end of this year.

Ivan wrote: "She was married to Leonard Woolf
Together they started the Hogarth Press..."

I don't know how many of you are aware of this but Leonard Woolf was also a writer, a colonial writer to be precise. He worked as a adminstrative officer in Sri Lanka (then known as Ceylon) and did some writng. There's this perticular novel call "Village in the Jungle" about southern Sri Lanka and he has given a very poor picture and there's eurocentrism in it. We studied it under Post-Colonial lit. at college. Any way "Leonard Woolf" is no where near his wife's talents. Just wonder how he might've felt being married to her.

Amalie, That kind of reminds me of Colette's first husband. He was very jealous of her and her earliest stories were published under his name.

Lori wrote: "Amalie, That kind of reminds me of Colette's first husband. He was very jealous of her and her earliest stories were published under his name."

And then there was poor Zelda Fitzgerald, whose husband (F. Scott) insisted on including his name with hers on stories she'd written that she submitted to magazines for publications. And Scott even took some of her work and published it as his own. But that's one thing Leonard Woolf never, ever did - he never claimed that he'd written anything that Virginia had actually done. Actually, Leonard was a very ethical and moral man, and was respected greatly by Virginia's friends in the Bloomsbury Group. We should give him some credit for the good job he did after her death in compiling unpublished writings of hers and publishing them in books. Of course, in "The Writer's Diary" he had to leave out a lot of entries because the people Woolf was talking about were still alive; didn't want any lawsuits, right?

Yeah, you are right. I was paying more attention to their talents. I'm not saying he must have been jealous of her talents but it might have been intimidating to have a wife with better talents than him.

Ellen,I don't know that about Fitzgerald, I always thought he really did love his wife. I've heard he had good relationships with his mother, his wife, and his daughter and wrote to them constantly whenever they were separated and that he paid Zelda mounting medical bills with money made from writing short stories for magazines.

Speaking of these husband-wife relationships two people really bugs me are Eliot and Ted Hughes. With what I've read I felt sorry for T.S. Eliot's wife and then Sylvia. He is a good poet but I always thought Hughes sounded self-centered, I don't know why some people don't see it. It seems it's always easy to put the blame on the 'insane'.

Amalie, unfortunately it's been documented that Scott Fitzgerald did steal Zelda's work and publish it as his own. Have you read this book?

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19...

In this one the author discusses this problem in their marriage, and provides examples of stories that Zelda had written by were published either under Scott's name alone or under both their names. I don't know if he and Zelda had such a loving relationship; it's difficult to know, because Scott was drunk so much of the time, and Zelda was bordering on the edge of mental illness as well. In any case, I think his feelings for his wife were conflicted at best.

Regarding T. S. Eliot and his first wife, apparently from what Virginia Woolf intimates in her diaries and letters the two had a rather poor relationship. And I think Tom left his wife to be with another woman, didn't he?

I couldn't agree more with you in your assessment of Ted Hughes. Very self-centered indeed, and not much of a comfort to poor Sylvia, was he? And then there's John Middleton Murray, Katherine Mansfield's publisher and writer husband. Another great piece of work, wasn't he? LOL! But there have been and always will be very good husbands who support their wives' efforts to write and publish their work or to build a reputation in some other area of creative work, perhaps art. We should give those men some credit, shouldn't we? Thanks so much!

Ellen wrote: "Amalie, unfortunately it's been documented that Scott Fitzgerald did steal Zelda's work and publish it as his own. Have you read this book?

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19......"

Very true indeed! I've not read this book and I certainly shall if I come across it. I forgot about Katherine Mansfield. So many deprived women. Great women *sigh*

Amalie wrote: "Ellen wrote: "Amalie, unfortunately it's been documented that Scott Fitzgerald did steal Zelda's work and publish it as his own. Have you read this book?

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19680..."

Yes, I know what you mean, Amalie. It's sad....

Hi from a newbie,

I've read Mrs Dalloway and Waves, and I think you have to be in the right mindset for her fiction writing, and get swept along with the language rather than trying to 'get' everything. I read Waves because I was going to see the theatre production, and I'm glad I did because it showed how amazing the multimedia production was; the theatre even published a version of Waves with pictures from the play.

Waves

I had to read Orlando for university, which is more tongue in cheek and probably would've been more enjoyable if I hadn't had to write an essay on it, but it is very clever. Her non-fiction is much more accessible however, from the bits and bobs I've read, and very interesting.

Hello livinginthecastle - welcome to the group. You've chosen a fantastic thread to make your initial comments!

I agree totally that Woolf requires a certain 'mood' in which she ought to be read to get the most out of her writing. She's an acquired taste. - I think she does the 'stream-of-consciousness' stuff better than Joyce but that's just my opinion!

If you're interested in Woolf, the group read Mrs. Dalloway in October 2010 - you may want to check out that thread... http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...

Thank you for the warm welcome, and I'll have a browse through the thread. :-)

Ivan wrote: "She was married to Leonard Woolf
Together they started the Hogarth Press
She had a relationship with Vita Sackville-West
Her sister was painter Vanessa Bell
Brother Thoby died of Typhoid
Nephew Jul..."

Who’s afraid of Virginia Woolf? I am. Well, not afraid but intimidated. Seven years ago I posted that I had "To the Lighthouse" next to my bed. It isn’t there anymore; it isn’t even in the house. I made three attempts before I finally conceded defeat. I found it impenetrable. I simply wasn’t able to follow the narrative. I recall that when I read "Mrs. Dalloway" I really had to force myself to read as much as I could in as few sittings as possible so that I maintained the connection, the rhythm of the text. Now, seven years later I have found that I keep thinking of "Orlando." I saw the film – I know what it’s about. But would I be able to get into it? So I’ve been reading about it. Today I went into a franchise bookstore and found a used copy in mint condition. I took it to the cashier and she became quite excited – “I love this book. This is one of my most favorite books.” She asked if I’d read anything else by Woolf and I told her that I’d read "Mrs. Dalloway" and "Flush: a biography" [this last she’d never heard of] and that I was interested in "Orlando" because I’ve been reading works by Vita Sackville-West who was the model and inspiration for the character Orlando. This fact was news to the cashier, who wrote down the names of the three Sackville-West volumes I’d read. I told her that I’d had considerable trouble with "To the Lighthouse" and she laughed and confided that she hadn’t been able to finish it either, but that "Orlando" was nothing at all like it and she had no trouble getting into and thoroughly enjoying it. I can’t tell you how encouraged I was when I left the store. I thanked her profusely. I’m quite optimistic now. But how ironic that of the three or four books I was looking for that the only one they had was "Orlando," and that the cashier would have read it and enjoyed it so much, and that she also had found "To the Lighthouse" inaccessible?

Good luck. I am still struggling with Mrs. Dalloway.

Ivan wrote: "Ivan wrote: "She was married to Leonard Woolf
Together they started the Hogarth Press
She had a relationship with Vita Sackville-West
Her sister was painter Vanessa Bell
Brother Thoby died of Typho..."

The approach i would suggest for 'To the Lighthouse' is reading it and letting whatever goes over your head go over your head, and then rereading it later. The first time I read it I was so confused. The sentences were too long. I couldn't decipher what was happening in the moment and what was memory. Etc. But I reread it a few weeks ago and it was a really rewarding experience. It's really a beautiful novel. So if you feel any pull towards 'To the Lighthouse' it's worth your time.

James wrote: "Ivan wrote: "Ivan wrote: "She was married to Leonard Woolf
Together they started the Hogarth Press
She had a relationship with Vita Sackville-West
Her sister was painter Vanessa Bell
Brother Thoby ..."

Thanks. I keep thinking I'll return to it.

James wrote: "Ivan wrote: "Ivan wrote: "She was married to Leonard Woolf
Together they started the Hogarth Press
She had a relationship with Vita Sackville-West
Her sister was painter Vanessa Bell
Brother Thoby ..."

I had the same experience. I read it and could not figure out what was what, I just pushed through. When I reread it I absolutely loved it.