Middle East/North African Lit discussion

I will be starting this book shortly, but anyone who has already read it, or is currently reading it, feel free to share your thoughts here.

I don't think i'll do a good job of explaining the importance of this book, so i will direct you to this review in the Guardian.

As for how this book relates to Palestine, our guest of honor, Linda Grant remarks in her review that "No agreement is possible about the history of this conflict. There is no objective truth, however much Zionists and anti-colonialists wrangle. The Palestinian writer Samir el-Youssef has remarked on the new genre that is emerging in Palestinian literature: memoir. The subjective truths of the participants are the real story of this long war between Jews and Arabs."

I firmly believe that you cannot discuss Palestine without discussing Israel, just as you cannot discuss Israel without discussing Palestine. Here's a to a dynamic and enlightening discussion! If anyone feels uncomfortable, feel free to contact me privately. :D

Nice review.

I read A Tale of Love and Darkness in 2008 and thought it was very, very good. Here follows my spoiler-free GR review: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Great book, wonderful author. The second book I read PITD was not as good, or rather it was similar to this one but not as complete.

Marieke, I am sure you will love it!

I'm at chapter 22 and I am absolutely loving this book. It feels as if an entirely new world has opened up to me. I haven't been to Israel yet and I think it is very fascinating how all these people from so many different countries find their way to this place that in a way is so unrelated to them yet there is no real alternative. For example it seems to me that Amos' grandmother would have rather lived anywhere BUT in Israel (though for some reason she also did not want to stay in the United States).

Oz makes it very clear that many immigrants had no other choice but Palestine. And many of them, including his mother, didn't like it there at all, but they had no choice. They were refused by every country to which they applied for visas.

I like Oz's depictions of his Grandmother very much (as well as all the people he describes - he portrays their Polish/Jewish idiosyncracies just right. I really felt I knew these people (and I did know people just like them). I just finished the book for the second time but still don't fully understand really why his grandmother and grandfather did not stay in America. I don't think she ever really tells Amos the truth. (Or am I forgetting something?) Maybe she figured exile was better with family and friends from the old world.

I know it was for my mother, a Jew, who was able to get out of Germany by marrying a childhood friend who had family in California and were able to get him (and a wife) a visa to America. But all her friends and contacts at that time (and for most of her life) were other German exiles.

The copy of Tale of L&D that I bookmooched has arrived, and I should be starting on it soon.

Anne, it seems like a lot of German Jews went to Argentina if they didn't come to the U.S.; a good friend of mine has Argentinian cousins for that reason. but i don't know anything about how that came about...especially because i think a lot of Nazis went to Argentina after the war (strange, right?!). sorry for the tangent, but i think this thread within the book is important--which countries did exiled Jewish people have access to (other than Israel) and how did they find their way there?--it's an important part of the modern Jewish story that gets overlooked.

okyrhoe wrote: "The copy of Tale of L&D that I bookmooched has arrived, and I should be starting on it soon."

yay! i've got mine pulled off my shelf but i am trying to wrap up two books before i start (almost done with them!)

I got a version now (in English) , but it will take me a while to reach reading this one ! too many books , so I am not sure I catch up with you .

I just need to add some info about the book, This book was one of few Israeli books that was translated to Arabic (as far as I know), it was translated by Jamal Gnaim ( 48 Arabs / Israeli Arab ) who is a permanent Member of The Arabic Language Academy- Haifa , the Arabic edition was published by Elias Khoury known for his piece (gate of the sun) .

Oz Amos Oz sent a copy of his book in the Arabic translation to Marwan Barghouti in his jail .

Rightist elements harshly criticized Oz's gesture and asked him to give back the Israel Prize he received .

well , that is why I thought of reading this book . trying to understand more .

Wow thanks for that information--I don't think I knew all of that. :)

Marieke,
yes, jews went wherever they could, including Argentina. Later, the nazis came, it's true, but they were all "incognito." Jews went to any country that would take them - I know someone who had a chance to go to Shanghai so he went there. Others went to Australia. I can't name all the countries off the top of my head, but those looking to get out Germany would often go anywhere that would take them. But no country had an open-door policy towards the jews - they took relatively few, especially the United States and England. "No jews were too many Jews" is a famous quote that was used at that time. Most countries required "sponsors", which were usually relatives, who would pay a lot of money to ensure that the emigrant would not become a responsibility to their new country. And every country had quite small quotas. My mother applied to many countries for visas and was turned down by them all. She studied Portuguese for 6-12 months for a while because Brazil opened up a quota for Jews; but then she was denied a visa because the quota had been filled. She had no family or connections there and was only 18 years old with no work experience. Why would they take her?

, it was translated by Jamal Gnaim ( 48 Arabs / Israeli Arab ) who is a permanent Member of The Arabic Language Academy- Haifa , the Arabic edition was published by published by Elias Khoury known for his piece (gate of the sun) .

Amos Oz was friendly with Koury who used his private money to pay for the Arabic translation and publication of ITLOD. I didn't know that Oz sent a copy of his book to Marwan Barghouti in jail, but that sounds like him. very funny that the rightists demanded that he give back the Israel Prize. Oz has been writing , not just fiction, but political essays since 1967 - everyone knows about his politics - what do they think he won the Israel Prize for?

Anne said, "Oz has been writing , not just fiction, but political essays since 1967 - everyone knows about his politics - what do they think he won the Israel Prize for?"

love that! :D

as for "no jews is too many jews"--sounds an awful lot like "the only good indian is a dead indian." (i'm referring to Native Americans)
shameful.

I think this book is amazing because of the way it combines Oz's personal history with the history of Israel as well as being a portrait of an artist, the story of how someone becomes a writer. So you have triple threads that wind around eachother- impacting and influencing.

I have read this memoir twice - the first time I was so consumed with his family's story that I barely noticed anything political - seriously, when I re-read it with an eye towards the historical/political, it felt like a brand new book.

I was very struck by how insular their life was. I liked how he says that both his parents came from the 19th c. - different strains of romanticism or politics - and were trying to function in the 20th.

there are a few key scenes to talk about in more detail but I feel like I should wait until more folks have finished the book. But without spoilers, I am intrigued by the scene in the Arab family's house where the little boy gets injured, the very end, and the placement of the family photograph in the book. I'd like to hear other thoughts.

Lauren,

I have also read the book twice now. I also love the way he tells different threads of his and his family's stories "in threads that wind around each other." I like your way of putting it. And yes, I was struck by the inevitability of his becoming a writer (and a reader). Given both his parents' influences, not to mention those of his extended family and even the milieu of his little neighborhood, it seemed likely that books and reading would be an important part of his life. Lucky him that he was constantly in situations where he had only his imagination to get him through hours of boredom and loneliness. I think his mother really encouraged his ability to use his imagination. I see this in both her imaginative storytelling and in their playing at storytelling where one would start a story and the other would continue it, etc. And how ironic that he tries so hard to put this part of his life behind him (for understandable reasons) and attempts to quell the reader/writer part of him. I love that he just couldn't stop himself from writing - it was something shameful that he did in secret. Lucky for him and for us that he couldn't completely repress this part of him.

I was also wondering about the placement of the family picture. It just suddenly appears with no reference to it. Since, as Oz says himself, he spends a great deal of time choosing between words and word placement in a sentence (I loved that section) I'm sure that he thought about where to put that picture - it could not have been random. The only thing I can say at this point, without any spoilers, is that he had already described his parents so well that, by the time the picture gets shown, I felt like I already knew his parents. But I felt I knew them even better once I saw their pictures. This was especially true for the father.

I was also struck by the scene at the Arab's family house and the fear and guilt that he lived with for years. I'm sure that the demands placed on him that day and every day to behave perfectly as a guest in other people's homes must have added fuel to his guilty imagination. I felt so sorry for him. He was just being a normal little boy, doing things that little boys do, with such dire consequences (which he inflates in his own mind since he's never able to know the true outcome).

Okay, I feel like I just wrote a thesis. I apologize for the length of this post.

terrific thoughts--i can't wait to get started this weekend. i like that i can look forward to reading it multiple times although right now i'm not sure which thread of the book i should focus more on?!

Anne, I agree about the incident in the Arab household. But in part, the awkwardness is because they didn't know eachother and had no way of knowing eachother so every action and word carried a weight. It's an incredible symbol of the segration that existed between the two families. There could be no normality because the situation was not normal.

*Possible Spoiler Alert*

Lauren,
I agree with all that you say. The enforced segregation and the war that soon followed made it impossible for the families to get to know each other.

I guess I'm also interested in the psychological ramifications of those times and of that one afternoon in particular. Tensions were so high between the Arabs and the Jews at that time that this poor "little diplomate" Amos practically felt that he caused the war which soon followed that afternoon. He repeats over and over again "it wasn't my fault." He kept imagining that he'd maimed the little boy for life. And I kept wishing that he could find out the truth, which was probably that the kid was fine. But at the individual level, as at the social level, people make up things about others when first-hand knowledge isn't possible. And it seems to be human nature to imagine the worst about others.

Marieke,
it would be great if you just got through one reading of the book. I don't think you need to focus on any particular aspect - it's all there and you're very aware of politics so those threads will jump out at you. I'm sure that the other threads will as well. Between Oz's writing style, including much repetition, and your own interest in the book I don't think you'll miss a thing.

I'm starting to read A Tale of Love and Darkness today. I picked up my copy in Steimatzky Book Store on Dizengoff Street in Tel Aviv. I've been wanting to read it for a long time.

I agree that if you remove politics (if that is possible), Israel is a fascinating country & culture. They revived a dead language after all.

I have read Oz's book My Michael. Actually I read it twice. I read it when I was living in Israel in 1987. At that time, Oz was considered the "top" Israeli author and considered a "must read" for anyone visiting the country. I imagine he is still considered that way?

I read My Michael again last year with my Dubai-based book club. Beautifully written novel about an Israeli family & the gloom of Jerusalem in the 1950s. Interestely, my book club did not like the book. For me, I am in love with Jerusalem, so I'm drawn to any book about that city.

For those deeply interested in this topic, I recommend the book The Lemon Tree by Sandy Tolan.

Will share more of my thoughts on A Tale of L & D after I make some progess into the book. Bye for now & Salaam, Holly

Holly, I agree. The Lemon Tree: An Arab, a Jew, and the Heart of the Middle East is fabulous, much , much better than Mornings in Jenin.

I also want to read A View from the Eye of the Storm, but it is difficult to get ahold of. Now it is available in Kindle format. I ordered it from ABeBooks, and it never came! Nile Daughter, this we have discussed numerous times. I was surprised you did not add it.

I opened a thread for (The lemon tree ) in the salon in Here

Anyone who is interested can join us there, thank you both for reminding me .

Chrissie ,

For (A View from the Eye of the Storm) , I added it to my wish list on the amazon when you recommended to me , but I did not notice I did not added to my bookshelves here !

Note for all new members
(Morning in Jenin) or (a tale of love and darkness) or (I saw Ramallah) were chosen fairly through voting polls with so many options by native authors ; and this was a week after opening a thread for book recommendations .

we did not force choices on the group , please if anyone have any complains and can not bring it up in public feel free to contact any of us in private .

I personally thought that getting ahold of View from the Eye of the Storm: Terror and Reason in the Middle East could be difficult, so I never mentioned it! I understand completely why it wasn't originally included. Just to be clear, I meant no criticism!!!

Holly, I think the marriage in My Michael is based on his parent's marriage - or so it may seem after you read TLD.

Anne, yes, the pyschological and political (again, two twining branches) impact of the incident with the little boy! The burden of tryingto represent your whole culture and people, the guilt, the disappearance of the family after '48 when they were displaced - everything serves as a metaphor for the political events that occured. It's a stunning piece and one of many in the memoir that I find myself thinking of over and over again.

I am reading Sari Nusseibeh's book which is like looking into a fun-house mirror- everything is reflected a little differently than I know of it. Which is the point of reading it, after all.

I love Nusseibeh's memoir and I think it makes an excellent companion book for Oz's...feel free to share your thoughts on Nusseibeh's book as well! Or we can make a thread for comparing the two books...?

Lauren wrote: " am reading Sari Nusseibeh's book which is like looking into a fun-house mirror- everything is reflected a little differently than I know of it. Which is the point of reading it, after all."

I ordered Once Upon A Country two days ago. Now I really can't wait to read it - it's been a long time since I've been inside a fun house. But seriously, Lauren, I love your metaphors. And if any place needs to be "reflected differently" it's the situation in Palestine/Israel.

Well, I grew up a nice American Jewish girl in the 60s and 70s and the way I was taught about Israel as a child in religious school really makes me shudder, to be honest.

But even if I've come a long way in my thinking, reading something from a totally different perspective still isn't easy. The players are the same, but the context is polar opposite.

Lauren,
I grew up during the same period as you. I didn't go to religious school, but to "Hebrew School." My upbringing was very secular and no indoctrination was involved, especially about Israel. I only started thinking about Israel when I was in my late 20s and 30s when I learned from an aunt that I had cousins in Israel who'd been living there for generations. So I was able to go there and think for myself about the situation.

Lauren said, "reading something from a totally different perspective still isn't easy."

that's very true! i'm so glad that our group is gelling in a way that let's you do that, though...and share your thoughts! Regardless of religious background, it's can be difficult for any American to consider the Palestinian side and my own thoughts/views have changed considerably over the past 15-20 years.

Sorry for being out of topic :)

Chrissie wrote: "I personally thought that getting ahold of View from the Eye of the Storm: Terror and Reason in the Middle East could be difficult, so I never mentioned it! I understand completely w..."

It is ok :) I understand .
*****
I find the discussion here very interesting for me ! I am glad the group is growing and opening new fields !

I downloaded View From the Eye of the Storm yesterday. This group is seriously adding to my TBR list.

Anne, do you mean you got the Kindle version? You simply must tell me what you think of it. Isn't Kindle dangerous when you can buy a book in a few minutes?!

Chrissie,

yes, I bought the Kindle version. I love being able to buy a book within seconds, tho what I almost always do (unless it's a free book) is download a sample to see if I really like the book. That keeps the danger factor at a minimum -if ease of purchase is what you mean by dangerous. (since joining GRs 3 weeks ago I have downloaded 170 samples - crazy, but really fun, tho I've spent more time investigating suggestions than reading. ) The other thing is that Amazon will allow you to return any kindle book within 7 days, no questions asked. So, that's very cool. If I buy a book and really don't like it, I can get a full refund. That also limits the danger factor.

Anne, I too am impressed with Amazon. They are very helpful and well organized. I too adore sampling books. Tou seem like me to pick books by how the author writes. We also seem to have similar book intersts! I have sent you a friend request. I hope you accept me. :0)

I've ordered this in from the library, Marieke - looks like a book I might learn from. I'll chime in when I have it and have had a chance to read some of it.

Wow, I've just finally gotten around to reading through the thread for this and I can't wait to get started on Oz's book. I just picked up a copy at the library on my way home today. I love hearing all the different perspectives in the discussion. Everyone else may be through w/ it long before I get to it.

Wendy wrote: "Wow, I've just finally gotten around to reading through the thread for this and I can't wait to get started on Oz's book. I just picked up a copy at the library on my way home today. I love heari..."

oh...i didn't start yet, Wendy! and i think it's a book that you have to take your time with so i don't plan to rush it. i'll likely start it very soon--before the end of the weekend, but i don't plan to have it done in a week or anything.

Marieke and Wendy, just sit back and enjoy it. I had a hard time putting it down! I loved the people and how EVERYTHING had to be discussed; nothing is a given. I think this is a delight that you see often in books about Jewish people. Everything can be seen this way or that or..... I loved the whole book.

Chelsea, to get my impressions of the book, check out my review. I read it quite some time ago. I DO think you will enjoy it.

You guys are killing me! I gotta finish the one I'm currently reading (almost done). I'm not a good multi-task reader so I can only doggedly read 1 book at a time. Then I have to read Possession for my real life book club and THEN I can read the Oz book, but it is killing me having to put it off hearing you all say how wonderful it is. I love a good story that I can sink my teeth into and that gives me lots to think about. I promise to do my best to get to it soon -- but Marieke, you will no doubt beat me to it!

Sounds like you're only slightly behind the people who are about to start the book, tho Possession isn't exactly a quick read. I'm a monogamous book reader as well, but I bet Marieke is a multi-tasker when it comes to books. No?

Wendy, I can only read one book at a time too! Otherwise my head gets spread too thin. Just to keep up the pressure - this IS an excellent book! ;0)

Wendy, don't worry, though I have already started with the book I'm a long way from being finished as I am reading some other books at the same time(one of them being Possession!)

I think Oz is an amazing writer (and the translator must have done a real good job as well, because I'm truly enjoying the style of this book).

Anne wrote: "Sounds like you're only slightly behind the people who are about to start the book, tho Possession isn't exactly a quick read. I'm a monogamous book reader as well, but I bet Marieke is a multi-ta..."

HA! yes indeedy. :D
i can't help myself.
i've tried the one book at a time thing and failed miserably. the closest i've come is two books at a time.

and wendy, really no worries--it's only the middle of may! and i have a feeling this discussion will spill into the months beyond june, anyway. :D

Natalie wrote: "Wendy, don't worry, though I have already started with the book I'm a long way from being finished as I am reading some other books at the same time(one of them being Possession!)

I think Oz is a..."

Cool Natalie -- we can discuss Possession and Oz together :-)

Wendy wrote: "Cool Natalie -- we can discuss Possession and Oz together :-) "

Anytime!

Back to Oz (may contain spoilers!):
I have been thinking about the title of the book. Somehow, when I hear "Love and Darkness" my mind automatically turns it into opposites as maybe in Love and Fear. But when I think about it, I do not see darkness and love as opposites at all. Love and darkness can go hand in hand, can maybe merge and become one and the same? At least sometimes? Maybe when we suffer a terrible loss? (Referring to his mother's death)

I know I've said it before, but I really do think Oz' has a unique way of making people come alive. I love his vivid description of his father's witty and slightly annoying comments, his inability to explore silence.

SPOILER ALERT

I agree that "Love" and "Darkness" go hand in hand in this book. There are countless examples of this. Of course there is Amos' love for his mother who falls into a very dark place (depression). Oz goes to great length to describe how dark the house is inside and why that is so (basement apartment with hill just behind the house). Their neighborhood is described as dark and shadowy. There's love and darkness in the atmosphere in the home - the house is already dark because hardly any light comes in from the outside, but the electric lights are kept off or as dim as possible to save money and later to protect his mother when she has migraines. But there is a lot of love between Amos and his parents, tho less so between the parents. The mother's depression is very dark as are the stories that she makes up for Amos. She literally sits in the dark because of her migraines. Amos and his father do everything they can to keep quiet and to take care of her (love).

His mother's suicide is definitely dark and Amos' reactions are filled with both love and darkness (he misses her, he hates her, etc.). When he moves to the kibbutz it's to get out of the darkness of Jerusalem and all that he has known and felt there. He even tries to prevent himself from reading and writing because those things are reminders of his dark childhood.

The mother's home in Poland and friends are remembered with great love; but then there are the killings and pogroms which prompt the family to move to Palestine. From there they learn that everyone they knew in their town was murdered. His mother's best friend is murdered in Palestine by a sniper's bullet.

Then there's the love and darkness re: Palestine. Jews love it, they hate it (their lives there). I forget if it's a grandmother or an aunt who speaks at length about her depression thinking about the difference between what they were taught in their Jewish schools in Poland about Palestine and Zionism: that they would share the land and all that they built with the Arabs there. The harsh reality (darkness) is that this is not the case at all. "It was a nice dream," she says.

Of course, the whole war between the Jews and the Arabs is dark..

Nothing much has changed -to this day people love and lose loved ones too early in Israel and the territories.

MORE SPOILER-Y

Anne, I like your take on the literal darkenss and light in this memoir.

I think the narrative is interesting, almost spiral shaped with certain elements repeating at closer and closer intervals.

A colleague of mine compared it to a psychoanalytic conversation where certain stories are repeated, each time with new details, until there is some kind of breakthrough.

Why do you think the book ends with the mother's suicide, even though that is not chronologically the end?

SPOILER

Like the psychoanalytic conversation you describe, Oz circles around and around the death of his mother. By ending with the details of his mother's suicide, he's letting the reader know that we've reached the center of the onion, so to speak - that this was the most important event in his life. After that there was nothing left to say. (If he were in analysis this would be just the beginning. )

Did you, or anyone, think that maybe his mother's death was perhaps an accidental overdose? She was given so many pills, each one stronger than the next. She was in a very confused state that day. She could easily have taken too many pills by accident. It surprised me that no one monitored her sleeping pills. How could such a disoriented person be in charge of her medications? I also wonder how much those sleeping pills added to her depression and confusion. Today we know all about that. What did they know then? It doesn't seem that they had any worries about these stronger and stronger pills.