The History Book Club discussion

This is the thread for the discussion of the buddy read:

NOTORIOUS ROYAL MARRIAGES: A JUICY JOURNEY THROUGH NINE CENTURIES OF DYNASTY, DESTINY AND DESIRE

by Leslie Carroll

Been dying to read it since i got in July.

That is good but for each buddy read: we need the synopsis of the book, the guidelines for the discussion using the spoiler html and also how you would like to divide up the timeline for reading the book with your friends.

I have done the first two for you - see the next two posts that follow.

This is the synopsis for this book:

A funny, raucous, and delightfully dirty 900-year history of the royal marriages of Europe's most famous-and infamous-monarchs.

Since time immemorial, royal marriages have had little to do with love- and almost everything to do with diplomacy and dynasty. Clashing personalities have joined in unholy matrimony to form such infamous couples as Russia's Peter II and Catherine the Great, and France's Henri II and Catherine de Medici-all with the purpose of begetting a male heir. But with tensions high and silverware flying, kings like England's Henry II have fled to the beds of their nubile mistresses, while queens such as Eleanor of Aquitaine have plotted their revenge...

Full of the juicy gossip and bad behavior that characterized Royal Affairs, this book chronicles the love-hate marriages of the crowned heads of Europe-from the Angevins to Charles and Di-and ponders how dynasties ever survived at all.

by Leslie Carroll

Remember the following:

Everyone is welcome but make sure to use the goodreads spoiler function.

If you come to the discussion after folks have finished reading it, please feel free to post your comments as we will always come back to the thread to discuss the book.

The rules

You must follow the rules of the History Book Club and also:

First rule of Buddy Read,
Respect other people's opinions, no matter how controversial you think they may be.

Second rule of Buddy Read,
Always, always Chapter/page mark and spoiler alert your posts if you are discussing parts of the book.

To do these spoilers, follows these easy steps;


Step 1. enclose the word spoiler in forward and back arrows; < >

Step 2. write your spoiler comments in

Step 3. enclose the word /spoiler in arrows as above, BUT NOTE the forward slash in front of the word. You must put that forward slash in.

Your spoiler should appear like this;
(view spoiler)

Chapter 1
(view spoiler)[This is a sample (hide spoiler)]

And please mark your spoiler clearly like this;

State a Chapter and page if you can.
EG: Chapter 24, page 154

Or say Up to Chapter *___ (*insert chapter number) if your comment is more broad and not from a single chapter.

Examples of spoiler;
Chapter 24 pg 367

(view spoiler)[This is a test. (hide spoiler)]

for some reason i didnt get the notifcation on the two posts here hmm. but thank you. do you want me to do the break down of the timeline? In this book i'm noticing that there are short and long chapters so I'm thinking we should read 3 chapters at a time. So for the first part we will read up to Ferdinand II and Isabella of Castile(queen catherine's parents). so stop after reading Edward VI and Elizabeth Woodville. Here's a timeline.

Part I:
Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine
Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine
Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville

Part II:
Ferinand II of Aragon and Isabella of Castile and Leon
Joanna of Castile and Philip the Handsome
Arthur Prince of Wales and Katherine of Aragon

Part III:
Katherine of Aragon and Henry VIII
Mary Rose Tudor and Louis XII
and Charles Brandon
Anne Boleyn and Henry VIII

Part IV:
Henri II and Catherine De Medici
Henry VIII and Jane Seymour
Henry VIII and Anne of Cleves

Part V:
Henry VIII and Kathryn Howard(kitty)
Henry VIII and Catherine Parr


Part VI:
Mary Queen of Scots and Francois Dauphin of France
Mary and Henry Stuart
Mary and James Hepburn

Part VII:
George I and Sophia Dorothea of Celle
Emperor Peter III and Sophie Friederike Auguste(aka Catherine the great;Catherine II)
Louis XVI and Marie Antoniette

Part VIII:
George IV and Maria Fitzherbert
George IV and Caroline of Brunswick
Napoleon Buonaparte and Josephine B(noting that im putting the Italianized version of his
name it is how i know it)

Part IX:
Napoleon and Marie Louise of Austria
Queen Victoria and Prince Albert
Franz Joseph and Elisabeth Amalie Eugeine

Part X:
Tsar Nicholas II and Alexandra Feodorovna
Edward VIII and Wallis Warfield Simpson
Raininer III and Grace Kelly

Part XI:
Charles Prine of Wales and Lady Diana Spencer
Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles


I've broken it into 11 parts we will read at our own pace. I know its alot of parts but i didn't want to go chapter by chapter so i did 3 royal marriages at a time. If you have read a book concerning the couple you were on please give us that information or any news stories if possible. In my next post I'll explain that a little bit better. That was just the timeline and thanks to Bently for doing the two parts I forgot especially the synopis and how to do spoilers.

when we come to the parts of on Isabella of Castile and all of Henry the VIII wives I will post some of the books I've read on them. I can't think of any at the moment I'd have to go back and look at my read books. When we come to part VIII with Napoleon and Josephine B I will talk about by Sandra Gulland Its a trilogy on her life i found it very interesting. I also have enjoyed many of the books on Marie Antoniette by Carolly Erickson but that one truly stuck out. Also if you find a news article from the local paper just post a few words on it. what i read in my local paper yesterday was that Archduke Felix of Austria died tuesday sept 6 2011 in Mexico at age 95. Also in the paper not sure if it was in todays paper sept 10 or yesterdays paper sept 9th but a rare diary is surfacing about a girl that survived the Nazi control of Lenigrad in 1941. the girl survived bomb attacks and stravation it is alot like Anne Frankthe only difference is one survived and one didn't.

Bently if I have forgotten something please let me know and we will start Monday Sept 12. Read at your own pace but I'll try to post at least once a week.

One last thing if you think the author forgot an important figure or you think she didn't need to include one of the subjects let us know. I'm sure there will be some great debates once we get started. Happy reading guys!!!

Good start Krystal and remember when you get to the point of talking about the book - make sure to use the spoiler html as described in message 5 but everything else is terrific.

I know the way I have post 6 laid out it looks long but once I post then everyone else can.

You are doing just fine.

I'll problay have Part I done by tonight and post on it sometime tonight or tomorrow. Now we just others to join.

OK, Krystal.........I will be joining the discussion although as I think I explained in a PM to you, I do not have the book with me since it is now being enjoyed by another family member.....but hopefully I can add something to the discussion.

That's fine. just do ur best.

I've done:
(view spoiler)[
Part I:
Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine
Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine
Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville

Page 1-71:
Most of the stuff on Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine and
Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
I didn't know much on Eleanor. From the little I know of Eleanor I believe her to be assertive and always going after what she wanted. She was the one who looked after most stuff with her first husband because he didn't understand much in the world of politics.
With Henry II and Eleanor I did not realize that he was a Plantagenet if I am not mistaken wasn't it the Plantagent line that ruled England before the Tudor line.
(http://www.britroyals.com/rulers.htm) read this page to remember Rulers of England.

After reading by Anne Easter Smith I thought I knew a little to understand what was said in the book. I did not know that the two consorts met under a tree. When Elizabeth pleaded Edward to help her with a land dispute regarding her late husbands land. She already had two boys and they would need a father figure no matter how they were.

Part II:
Ferinand II of Aragon and Isabella of Castile and Leon
Joanna of Castile and Philip the Handsome
Arthur Prince of Wales and Katherine of Aragon

I enjoyed reading this part because everything about Isabella and Ferinand II has always interested me but there isn't much Historical fiction on them. I did not realize that it took Christopher Colombus at least 3 tries before he was given a green light to do some exploring. I had heard of Joanna the mad but never had the opportunity to read anything on her. In my opinion I think her family mistreated her and how her husband treated her is what made her the way she was maybe she did suffer from what we know today is depression but I don't think she was just born with that quality like some people are made to believe but the way she was treated made her the way she was. With Arthur and Katherine of Aragon I think it's sad that he died so shortly after their marriage. I think Katherine's parents were wrong in not paying her, her respectful dowry. Every Royal bride came with a dowry. I know that her parents were trying to keep their kingdom from being ruled by foreigners but I believe they should of paid the dowry. (hide spoiler)]

Still reading pt 3. added spoiler tags for those who have not yet started.

Part I
(view spoiler)[My favorite section of Part I concerns Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine. She was a woman who knew her own strengths and used them to shape Henry's rule. Since this was a story of her life there was not a much about her sons, especially her favorite, Richard the Lionheart I wished there had been a little more about that part of her history but she was an amazing person in her own right. The film The Lion in Winter is worth seeing which tells of the last few years of her life when Henry had put her aside. (hide spoiler)]

Part II
(view spoiler)[You get a feeling for the tragedy to come in the life of Katherine of Aragon......first the death of Prince Arthur and yet to come in Part III, the marriage to his brother who would become Henry VIII....and we all know what happened there. (hide spoiler)]

by various authors.

(view spoiler)[
Jill she gives so little on their nicknames that until u metioned Richard the Lionheart I didn't know that was Eleanor's son. I've read alot on England but appartely not enough to know the family lines. did u see the link I posted? it kinda helps u remember the British royalty. In the Lion of Winter which consort are you talking of Henry VIII and Katherine or are you talking of Eleanor (sorry ur confusing me)
and yea we do know what happen with Henry VIII "The Great Matter" Just to beget an heir who was really short lived. (hide spoiler)]

I guess I'm a bit behind, but better late than never! Been a hectic start to the school year! I've just started reading about Arthur and Katherine.

What I find the most fascinating about the marriages is the resulting family trees. There were a few "wow I never realized that" moments for me in the first few sections. I wish the book contained geneology charts / family trees - I'm a visual learner, so I need to see the chart to make sense of the relationship. (I also wish she had put in maps of the lands joined by the marriages for the same reason.) Having said that, I'm really enjoying her writing - it's got a great flow and style to it. I especially like the quotes from textual evidence that she weaves into her narrative.

Now for the specifics.

(view spoiler)[One part of the marriages I find especially fascinating is the rules of consanguinuity that were constantly bent or enforced depending on who benefitted financially from the match - including the person approving it.

I agree with both of you on Eleanor of Aquitaine. What the book only mentions briefly is that her court was the beginning of the rules of "Courtly Love," which is where most of our modern ideas of medieval chivalry and romance come from.

I was even more impressed with Isabella. Impressed with her ability to maintain her own power and rights in a man's world (unlike Eleanor who got locked away), and keep her marriage functional on a personal and political level despite how Ferdinand must have felt about her retention of power.

My "I didn't realize that" moment was with Elizabeth Woodville - mother of the Elizabeth of York who married Henry VII, grandmother of Henry VIII and great-grandmother of Elizabeth I - and that she was considered a 'commoner' despite her family connections. And how heartbreaking to have your two boys taken from you, knowing she shouldn't trust Richard but not really having a choice.

My big "I forgot about that" moment came when I realized Katherine of Aragon was Isabella's daughter, and that her nephew was Isabella's grandson Charles, who would be key in preventing Henry VIII divorcing her legally in the Catholic church.

I read a historical fiction book about Katherine of Aragon by Jean Plaidy which contended that the teenagers faked the consummation to make everyone happy, figuring they could rectify the situation later when they were ready. The book portrayed them as friends. (hide spoiler)]

Thanks, Bentley........post has been revised.

Jill wrote: "Thanks, Bentley........post has been revised."

Thx to you both (smile)

I need to do my reviews cuz I'm almost done but never have the time. But I promise to follow my own outline and the assignment this week will give me a chance (no facebook,tv, music-but i don't care i'll still listen to music)

That's OK Krystal. Take your time. :>)

I guess I'll be doing a lot of writting cuz I didn't do my reviews yet. So Lets begin.Please read above guideline to find which royals are talked about in each section. As I read the book I found that I didn't know half of the royals. In the later chapter especially. I also found that she left out two important royals. But when we get to that part I'll mention who I think she should of added. and if anyone else feels that she needed to add or take someone out then feel free to add that.


Part I:
(view spoiler)[
I found Eleanor of Aquitance to be a strong women. Eleanor brought more to her first marriage then Louis VII of France. Louis was actually the 2nd son of the King of France but when the first son dies, the 2nd son(Louis) was called from the monastery to be to be the next King. Eleanor was the leader of the marriage because Louis was too shy. Her coronation took place Christmas day 1137. Eleanor was unable to hold up her end of the marriage contract because she didn't bear any children(she complained I thought I married a King but I am finding I married a monk). Eleanor demanded a divorce from Louis because they were too close in the eyes of the church.

HenryII and Eleanor
I've always liked the rulers of England before the Tudors,the Plantagenets but not too much is really known about them. But Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitance. Henry was actually the Duke of Normandy(tell me if I am wrong? but is Normandy now Norway or Sweden?or somewhere near)They had threee sons Henry, Richard and Geoffrey.

Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville
I first saw fictionalized version of Elizabeth in by Philippa Gregorybut in the White Queen it was about keeping her boys safe. In this book I learn more about Elizabeth. We learn about how they actually met and how she needed help with a land dispute with her former husband's family. The tree would later be called the "Queen's Oak". This was the era of War of the Roses one of the worst times of English history in my opinion. Elizabeth was a commoner and her family fought for the Lancasters but she married the King who was actually a York.They were on opposite of the war. (a little background in case you didn't know, Jaquetta claimed to be a decendant of Mesulina or however its spelled"the Sea Witch" and dabled in dark arts). Also it should be noted (spelling was phonetic at the time and would not be standardized for centuries which would also accounts for alternative spellings of Elizabeth's maiden name as wydeville and widvile,pg 29-30) (hide spoiler)]


I'll leave it at part I for today and continue a little each day. Too tired to write any more.

Part II

(view spoiler)[
Isabelle of Castile and Ferinand of Aragon
Here we start looking at the Tudors. We start with Katherine of Aragon's parents. Since she is a girl she inheirts her mother's states of Aragon. Isabelle and Ferinand were a power house in Europe. Katherine's granmother was Isabella of Portugal. Isabelle of Castile was intent on marrying the King of Sicily-Ferdinand. Also Castilian grandees(nobility) preferred that she marry the Aragonese match. But the power couple were second cousins and needed the papal dispensation. They were both descendants ,through different wives of John of Gaunt who was a son to Edward III. Isabelle and Ferinand strived for a Complete Catholic realm so they expelled Jews and Muslims.

Joannna of Castile and Phiilip the Handsome
Joanna the mad or Juana la Loca as she is known in Spain was Katherine of Aragon's sister. she was fascinated with the macabre, was superstitious and obessed with death. Joanna wanted to become a nun but her parents needed her to make a dynastic alliance. Her wedding to the Duke of Burgundy was a double wedding between Phillip and Joanna, and Phillip's sister Maragret and Joanna's only brother. These marriages came with no dowries. the grooms were expected to pay the wives dowries unheard of usually. In my opinion Joanna went mad because she was often lonely and had no money to pay her Spanish servants so they were sent packing. Also her husband would sometimes beat her. Hormonal changes during or after her first preganacy may have caused her depression. When Philip of Burgundy died and Joanna was on a pilgrame to bring his corpse to Granada she went into the labour and shunned the midwives and delievered her daughter Catalina alone. Joanna died in 1555 at the age of seventy five.

Arthur Prince of Wales and Katherine of Aragon
They were only married for a short time before Arthur died from his illness in 1502. Katherine's marriage to Arthur took years to fulfill because Ferinand wanted to be certain that the throne wouldn't be urpursed. Henry VII had won the throne from the field of Bosworth the year that Arthur was born. Arthur claims that the marriage was consumated but years later Katherine insits that the marriage was not consumated when she was in for the fight of her life with her second husband Henry VIII. (hide spoiler)]

Part III
(view spoiler)[
Katherine of Aragon and Henry VIII
I won't go into the most detail here because I assume that we all know how Henry treated Katherine after years of marriage. A papal dispensation was needed because it was assumed that Arthur and Katherine had consumated their marriage. I believe it was i don't know if anyone else agrees with me but I just think that they had. Henry and Katherine had one daughter Mary I or bloody Mary. Henry and Katherine enjoyed many things to together so I don't know why after 20 years he would want to be rid of her. He does it for the sake of England only male heirs can inheirt the throne. But in France female heirs could inherit the throne. In grade 12 History I focused on this exact matter I don't remember exactly which quotes Katherine and Henry used but I know that Henry used Leviticus and Katherine Deuteronomy.
The injunction in Leviticus about "taking" a "brother's wife" raised concerns

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects....
So Henry finally got his wish to divorce Katherine in 1533. (hide spoiler)]

(note:not finsihed will edit later)

Although I read it years ago, I vividly remember reading by Jean Plaidy. She has an interesting take on Katherine's marriage to Arthur.

(view spoiler)[In the book, Plaidy clearly believes the marriage to Arthur was never consumated. In the scenario she paints, Arthur was shy and nervous, so the two teenagers (15 and 16) agreed to pretend they had consummated the marriage. In the novel, Katherine pokes herself in the heel with a needle to put the obligatory drops of blood on the sheets (which were later testified to as evidence). I believe this is the version of events Katherine and her duenna testify to years later. If Arthur did die of testicular or some similar cancer six months after the wedding, this version would make even more sense, as he would have probably already been sick when they were married.

Leslie Carroll provides some solid evidence of Katherine lying in other situations to protect the interests of Spain and later of her daughter. She certainly seems to think Katherine consummated the marriage. I guess the ironic part is that no matter which version is true, she either lied when she was married to Arthur or lied when Henry was trying to divorce her. (hide spoiler)]

I find the "what ifs" of the marriage of Arthur, Prince of Wales and Katherine of Aragon intriguing.
Part II
(view spoiler)[
If Arthur hadn't have died young, and had attained the throne, England would have retained the Roman Catholic religion...there would be no Church of England, no divorce, etc. That would have had interesting effects on the rulers that followed the house of Tudor, i.e.; the Stuarts. (hide spoiler)]

Part III

(view spoiler)[
I think that the consummation of the marriage of Prince Arthur and Katherine was probably the strongest argument for papal dispensation that Henry could find for getting rid of his Queen although as we know, it didn't make any difference. Since Salic Law still prevailed in England, he had to have a male heir to further the Tudor dynasty and Katherine was past the age of providing that heir. I think she was lucky to retain her head. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[I've finished through Part VI. I thought it odd that she chose to include the ghost story about Kathryn Howard, but left out the one about Anne Boleyn walking around the Tower of London with her head tucked under her arm. That was always my favorite, and one of my best Halloween costumes (I was 12, and exactly one house I went trick or treating at knew who I was at a glance!).

I always feel sorry for Mary, Queen of Scots. Always until I remember she plotted against Elizabeth at the end. As a mother, I couldn't imagine never seeing my baby son again. I guess she could comfort herself with the knowledge that she protected his throne for him... (hide spoiler)]