Fantasy Aficionados discussion

Dark fantasy takes some of the same themes of horror, but the focus is different. How would you describe that difference?

Which fantasy novels would you cite as good examples of dark fantasy?

Huh. That's a hard question. For me, I suppose there's a certain agency in dark fantasy somewhat lacking in horror.

There's also, I think, a more personal level of threat in horror. This isn't to say there's no personal threat in dark fantasy, but just when I think of horror I think of a small group confronting some unknown versus dark fantasy where the horrific elements are more baked into the entire world.

There's definitely a lot of overlap, though.

For example,

A story about a small group of people discovering that vampires exists and going after them to hunt them (assuming the vampires are evil, et cetera) with a bunch of uncertainty about the scope of what they are even facing is horror.

The Armies of Light suiting up to take on the Armies of Strahd in the battlefield that have been slowly advancing draining entire towns of blood is more dark fantasy. Horrific yes, horror, no.

I guess when I think about it's also less about scale then the relative level of grimness and uncertainty as well:

1) Scenario #1 (Horror): Woman discovers her new boyfriend is an incubus and has been slowly draining her life force.

2) Scenario #2 (Dark fantasy): Woman is a hunter of incubi with a detailed knowledge of their weaknesses, et cetera.

If, in general, the people involved in the setting have a general clue about what they are facing, even if its vast in scope, it goes more into dark fantasy land.

The nature of the terror is different too, I'd argue. Fear of death from horrific monsters or whatever is quite natural regardless of setting. I mean being a paladin taking on a dragon should be terrifying.

The soul-piercing fear that comes from a paradigm changing encounter with the unknown or with the knowledge they have little ability to actually deal with the threat makes it more horror, IMO.

At a very basic level, horror, I'd argue is fundamentally thematically about fear and terror, but dark fantasy even though it has that, is not. It's more just about a setting that includes fear and terror.

I'd cite C.S. Friedman's Black Sun Rising as a good example of dark fantasy.

An interesting even more genre-blurring example is Stephen King's Dark Tower series, which in some portions is more dark fantasy and some more horror.

I like that explanation very much, Jeremy! Thanks!

I like to see some horror elements mixed in with fantasy, but you are right, it's about how the terror and fear-inspiring elements are employed.

I am a horror fan, but I'm finding I actually like dark fantasy more. It seems like more of a tangible journey, and there is more hope in the process.

Haha, Kat I like your definition.

Kat, that's a quick and effective description!

I'm glad we can learn from each other, Kat.

That's a great question without an easy answer and could be applied to other genres, like dark Sci-Fi, mystery etc.

I suspect a lot of pigeonholing depends on the focus of the reader. If I cannot make up my mind. I generally put a book in more than one category.

hmm...I think that dark fantasy deals with dark themes, whereas horror deals more with dark actions and tends to be more grisly.

I don't suppose I think that much about it. I mean I'm a Lovecraft fan from way back and his work is generally looked at as horror. Yet it's also included in many dark fantasy anthologies. Many writers show his influence. Robert E. Howard has some stories that are very close to Lovecraft's yet he's almost always considered fantasy. I suppose that is because of his better known fantasy work (Conan, Solomon Kane, Kull etc.).

It can be argued that just as Urban fantasy, science fantasy, dark fantasy and so on are all sub-genres of the over all Fantasy genre, horror itself is a sub-genre of Fantasy. These stories are after all generally fanciful (here I leave out those that claim to have some basis in events or personal experience. They may be fantasy to, but aren't admitted to be so).

Sometimes the line between horror and dark fantasy is just too dim or blurred to draw. King's Dark Tower has been mentioned. Many of King's books tie into that multiverse, The Talisman and Black House for example. These were written with Straub, yet his Ghost Story is almost always considered horror. I think it can go either way. Or there's The Wolfen considered horror, yet it is in my opinion very much an urban fantasy (though written before that sub-genre was named).

So, (it's too late to say "in short" LOL) I just enjoy the books. Many can simply go either way.

Mike:

I agree with you. I think the distinction is largely blurred, and with many stories the distinction no longer makes sense. Lovecraft, as you state, is a good example of dark fantasy and is also categorized as horror. Caitlin R. Kiernan also writes what I consider dark fantasy, and what some may think is horror (though her books are generally shelved with Fantasy).

Most horror books I've read do fall under the broad umbrella of 'fantasy.'

I'm almost through a Dean Koontz book right now (not bad but not one of his best) and I'd say it's straddling the line between 3 genres. I'd say it's shooting for horror, but it's also dark fantasy and also a type of science fiction.

The only problem I see with this (and it does seem to me more common now for books to blur the genre lines) is it's hard for book stores to "shelve them". if we get a chance to browse we need to hit several sections. LOL

For me horror is more about the feeling it generates, where dark fantasy is a story involving fantastical situations involving characters typically found in horror, but the story itself isn't necessarily scary. As an example, the Sukie Stackhouse novels are dark fantasy but Salem's Lot is horror.

I've been hearing the term "grimdark fantasy" recently--is it the same as (or a sub-subgenre of) "dark fantasy," or is "grimdark" grittier?

Carly wrote: "I've been hearing the term "grimdark fantasy" recently--is it the same as (or a sub-subgenre of) "dark fantasy," or is "grimdark" grittier?"

I think it's all the same. It's all about the good guy loosing in the end.

One great example is King's Dark Tower series. I've not completed it...but I'm sure I know how it ends. I studied the poem the inspired King in college.

To me, it seems like there may be two main types of horror, only one of which is anything like "dark fantasy." There is what I think of as "supernatural horror," which is horror with fantastical elements, and then there is "crime horror," which usually deals with serial killers and whatnot. "Supernatural horror," of course, is what I, as a fantasy nut, would usually prefer to read of the horror genre, but I've read some good "crime horror" too.

As far as drawing distinctions between dark fantasy and horror...is that really necessary? I'm sure any good author writing within either of these genres would tell you that they hope to blur the lines between genres, not sharpen the distinctions.

I wouldn't think so. I've read horror that straddles the line. Koontz often writes serial killer/supernatural horror as do others. It means a lot more to some people i guess.

Wow. Some really good definitions. I'm in the whole "Eek" philosophy. To me the difference is Buffy vs. Salem's Lot.

Salem's Lot is solely responsible for my hatred of vampires. Watched the mini-series with my parents (and, omg, it had David Soul!) Could not sleep for a week. This irrational fear carried over into the first Twilight movie. It also kept me awake. Go figure!

Loved kick-ass Buffy. :) So, maybe the difference between proactive and reactive hero(ine)?

Vampires: Steak 'em and move on.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Vampires: Steak 'em and move on."

^.^

Words I try to live by.


:)

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Words I try to live by.


:)"

Do you have this issue often? Is there something you would like to share? Something we should know?

=D

...What is it about "Vampires: Steak 'em and move on." That isn't clear?

:)

For me, the line between dark fantasy and horror is about power. Can the protagonists reasonably expect to fight back against the menace? Or can they merely survive/escape it? In survive/escape, I would include 'closing the evil portal' and other things like that which end the threat, but without destroying the source of it.

Powerlessness in the face of the threat is a lot of what gives horror its kick (at least for me), and empowerment to fight it takes a lot of the fear away. An 'if it bleeds, it can die' sort of philosophy.

I see horror as being set in our world whereas dark fantasy is set in an imagined world where dark and/or scary things happen to the character. In horror, the characters are usually ordinary people. In dark fantasy, they're either not human or possess some special power.

I see modern horror as more bloody and less pyschological.

I like the definition of Fantasy = Good guys win against evil vs. Horror = Good guys just try to survive (and maybe only one or two of them actually do). I think that sets the town pretty well. Stephen King would be horror because you just hope the guy you like lives.

I would think in a supernatural horror story, all of the supernatural elements are in some way linked to the horror aspect. In a dark fantasy, there may be several other supernatural elements in the story.

What's the difference between urban and dark fantasy? I've been thinking of reclassifying my series on Amazon from urban to dark, but I still don't quite get either one. I just thought it was pulp.

H. wrote: "For me, the line between dark fantasy and horror is about power. Can the protagonists reasonably expect to fight back against the menace? Or can they merely survive/escape it? In survive/escape,..."

I think this is the key, or at least a quick acid test of whether the balance is on one side or the other. When the characters (or the balance of the story's tone) really seem like they have almost a fair chance, the story's moved out of horror and into dark fantasy, maybe just into Action With Monsters. Eg Salem's Lot vs Buffy-- or Alien vs Aliens.

My own nutshell is: Dark fantasy is him with a big nasty-looking "gun" squaring off against you with your own "gun." Horror is him with a big nasty-looking gun, and you with a set of antlers.

--Still, marketing and reader expectations amount to "whatever people think of for this." And Amazon's definitions are the same, but more hobbled.