Harry Potter discussion

When you first finished Half Blood Prince, did you think Snape was good and point out the proof that he was or were you convinced that Dumbledore had been fooled and he really was evil? What did you think then and what made you think so?

i actually thought he was bad -gasp- but the last book rly changed me

Thanks ok if you did. I think most people did and am surprised that most people are now claiming they didn't. My brother wouldn't even finish 6 for a while he was so mad even though I kept telling him Snape wouldn't still be teaching Harry if he weren't good (telling him to close his mind and his mouth) and it would all be explained in 7. I think Rowling did an awesome of making it ambiguous so you would believe he was bad. It's what you're supposed to think at the end of 6.

I always believed in Snape.

I thought he was not evil after reading Half-Blood Prince. I won't say good because I did not think Snape could be all good and I still don't think he really is, even after Deathly Hallows. When I started reading Deathly Hallows I got a little worried he might really be evil because three quarters of the book were over without any mention that he might not be what he seems. I'm glad Prince's Tale was the longest chapter and that it focused on him, but I wish he could have appeared more in person in the book. Snape is one of my most favorite characters, even though I don't think he is a hero.

to tell the truth, i never trusted him until between the sixth and seventh books. that's when i realized how brave he was - it almost made me cry!

When I finished Half Blood Prince, my first thought was..."Wait a minute- it's too easy to have Snape be the bad guy after all". And I kept thinking how Dumbledore said "Severus, please" like begging him to complete a promise. And Snape always ( however begrudgingly) helped Harry. Then I started second guessing myself because JKR likes to fool us. But then I went back to my original thought and decided, nah, he wasn't bad. I loved how he asked Harry to look at him in the 7th book as he was dying so he could see his beloved Lily's eyes once more. Yep, cried.

I thought he was bad

omg gail - i shed a tear as well! :_(

yes, i did trust him. i never liked him as a person, but it never crossed my mind he was not trustworthy.

I always thought that ther was more to Snape that what was apparent. Dumbdore was always so sure, Snape was always so on guard about Potter's Dad and his friends. I did not feel that his being good or bad was so dominate. i alway thoought that it was more, but what it turned out to be was a good twist.

I always had faith in Severus Snape. However, my trust in him after finishing Half Blood Prince, was based mainly on two things. The first was the argument overheard by Hagrid in the forest. The second was the fact that Snape had Harry at his mercy on the grounds of Hogwarts shortly after Dumbledore's death, but he did not harm him and he was even attempting to teach Harry the whole time. I will not say that I ever considered Snape to be a hero in any fashion because his behavior towards Harry was atrocious. However, I did believe that Dumbledore had great reasons for trusting Snape and that JK Rowling just hadn't revealed them to us at that point.

no.
but i did in the end of the 7th book

well of course! :)

I will be honest, at first before the sixth book, I thought he was good and actually did think he was good, later when he killed dumbledore I was very mad and didn't believe in him at all. Of course, it all cleared up in the seventh book although I still don't completely trust him or like him.

now i love him but when i read the sixth book i felt like shoving his fat wand up his nose..now i regret ever having thought of that :(

I was very conflicted. There was one part of me that immediately accepted that he was evil, and was just biding his time until he could show it. Then there was another part of me that was fighting to see that he was good, and pointing out all the things that would have been different had he actually been evil....I was sooooo happy however when it turned out that he was actually doing as Dumbledore asked. =)

no i did not.when i read sorcer's stone, and watch the movie, i knew he was evil

But Snape isn't evil. I think Snape is a hero. It takes a lot of guts to put your life on the line like that for so many years.

He isn't evil, but I don't really think he is a hero.

Snape is a hero!!!

But why? Every good deed he did was only for the love of one person, Lily. He never really cared about Harry.

He risked his life to protect her son even though he hated him. That makes him a hero in my book.

Snape was bitter throughout his entire life. The reason he hated Harry was because Harry reminded him of James, who bullied him and married his love. Snape had every right to hate James, but not to hate Harry. His behavior to Harry, in my opinion, was unexcusable. He only saw, as Dumbledore said, what he expected to see. He could never understand that Harry's personality was much more like Lily's than James'. Snape also largly abbused his power as a teacher, so I still don't consider him a hero.

I have to say, from book one, I wanted Snape to turn out good, or at least not evil. I waffled back and forth through all the books right through 7. No one trusted Snape but Dumbledore. Through the books, J.K. Rowling didn't trick us much, the evil guys were evil. You didn't trust them. Snape was the only one that had a question mark looming over his head.

Was Snape good or bad? Don't really know if I can say even to this day, but he was human and once he set his loyalty on Dumbledore he stayed there risking his life to carry out all Dumbledore's plans and ensuring that Harry lived to fulfill the prophecy regarding Voldemort.

Besides, I like the fact that the strong willed, demanding teacher turned out to have Harry's best interests at heart all along.

In my book he's a hero.

My son says all of you are correct in one way or another.

snape was a hero - he was so brave to do all of those things that dumbledore told him to do. i takes a lot of guts to kill your master. i would never have killed dumbledore, i must admit, even if it was an attempt to save harry and destroy the elder wand.

he was a hero

Got to thinking some more about this, and through all the books time and again Dumbledore expressed his faith in Snape's loyalty and as Hermione pointed out. Dumbledore was no idiot. Also, time and again when Snape had opportunities to truly harm people he disliked (Lupin, Sirius, and Harry) He always did his best by them. Yeah, undoubtedly Snape was a hero, but did I trust him. Frankly, NO. I really wanted to. I really didn't want him to be bad, but did I honestly think he could be trusted? NO! I held out hope and was almost happier that Snape turned out to be loyal to Dumbledore and to Lily's memory than I was that Harry lived.

Snape made chice that forced him to keep his distance from others, how can you function as a spy and come across as friendly when it is good against evil. would he not have been betrayed if he was everyone's best friendwith the order and the opposite with lord voldy? He lived a hard life, keepeing his beloved son, but another man safe, even when he could have made other choices, that were less pressure on himslef. He really was a hero. I am glad Harry named hos son for him

Mitchell,
I agree! I think it's why Harry's walk into the forest is so hard. Partly it has to do with Harry's fate, but on the heels of Snape's story, you can't help but be filled with emotion. In some ways I cared more about Snape's story than Harry's and was completely satisfied with his motives. Yeah he hated Harry, but he never did harm, only good.

Panda,
Sometimes heros aren't the brave, strong chivalrous types, but the flawed human ones. It doesn't excuse his bias or his anger, but the fact that he risked inspite of those makes him a hero.

Annalisa, you made a good point, but I still do not think Snape is a Hero. In most definitions, a hero is described as someone who is admired or looked up to for their brave or noble deeds. Snape is never really admired by most people during his lifetime. After his death he is recognized, though I still don't think he has other necassary qualities. His motive for every good deed was his love for Lily. Apart from Dumbledore, he did not care for anyone else. I feel he was a little selfish, in that after Lily and Dubmedore, the first person he thought of was himself. He did not really seem that way because he did so much for Lily, but he never showed a shred of sympathy to some, such as neville, treated other, like Hermione very unfairly, and fawned on Slytherins, such as malfoy. It is true Snape needed to keep his cover, but I think he went to extremes.

Snape is still my favorite character after the trio because he was so interesting to read about. He was certainly not an evil person. I consider him an anti-hero.

Also, I'm not sure whether this belongs here, but I have a question about Snape, Dumbledore, and the Elder Wand. I think Dumbledore and Snape began to see each other as close friends, but why didn't Dumbledore tell Snape about the Elder Wand? He planned to have its power die with him. I also think he meant Snape to end up with a powerless wand. Voldemort would not have known if the wand was not powerful, so he would have killed Snape anyway. I think Dumbledore knew that Snape would probably have to die to carry out their plan and that it would be for the greater good. I believe Snape was prepared to die, but that it was still also a kind of betrayal on Dumbledore's part. This is all assuming that they did not discuss the wand, of course, which the memories in The Prince's Tale do not show that they did.

Pandy,
I think we'll just agree to disagree, but that's ok. As Mitchell says we're both right in our own way. I see your point and I can see why people would have that view. For me though, Snape is a hero. At least you think think he's interesting to read. It's part of the reason he's my favorite character is because of the depth and ambiguity.
You bring up an interesting point about the Elder Wand that I have wondered too. I think Dumbledore didn't tell Snape about the wand because while it tempted Dumbledore with a stronger moral code he was worried about what the quest would do to Snape. It is a quest he could only trust to Harry. But how do you keep Snape from the knowledge while protecting him at the same time? If anyone could have figured out a solution to that problem it would have been Dumbledore (or technically Rowling which I have complete faith that she could have). I don't believe they discussed the wand. Snape seemed pretty clueless when Voldemort ambushed him with it. I love that Snape and Dumbledore became close friends and am disappointed that Dumbledore didn't protect him somehow. It does seem like a betrayal and since the discussion of the wand came up at King's Cross, Dumbledore could have better explained it's trail to Harry and why he did or didn't do what he did and what his intentions were.

No one Who finished Half Blood prince will say Snape is good...including me....Am i right?

Manjula,
I can't say that you are. That's what this discussion is about and as you can see there were many of us who were strongholds for Snape. I never doubted.

Manjula wrote: "No one Who finished Half Blood prince will say Snape is good...including me....Am i right?"

Have your read Prince's Tale in book 7 yet? Snape is definitely ambiguous

Snape is definitely ambiguous. And Annalisa, you're right. We'll just agree to disagree. I like your thoughts on the Elder Wand. It is nice that Snape and Dumbledore, who for the most part, kept to themselves, developed a friendship. I also wish Dumbledore had given a clearer explanation about his intentions and the wand at King's Cross.

I have always, and will always think that Snape was evil. He just... is. Its rather hard to explain...
When you think of all the things Snape has done, he was indeed a troubled youth, and like Tom Riddle, he had his problems. But that does not change who he is. He is just the guy that you love to hate. Sure, Voldemort is the 'bad guy' but Snape is the next one that you have to hate.
Thats just me though... I feel that Snape is the loathsome guy that you just have to hate. And I much rather enjoy my hatred of him than to possibly think he is a good guy. Maybe deep, deep, DEEP down he is somewhat good but... I am not sure that I could change my view of Snape.

I really hated Snape, and then when I read the 7th book I felt really sorry for him!! P

I think that the reason why Snape is so back and forth is that his feelings for Harry are mixed up. He loves Lily and will always love her, therefore, he will do anything to protect her child.....who is the son of a man he despises! I kind of feel bad for him. How confusing can that be! Everything he has done for Harry (and there have been alot) he didn't do for him, he did it for her....in fact he probably hated doing them since Harry reminds him so much of James.

i totally trusted snape my parents said I was crazy but it was obvious that he was a good guy when you heard him arguing with dumbledore in the 5th book then he killed him I thought that was obvious

Kathy, I think you hit the nail right on the head with your assessment.

I was one of the people who always had faith that Snape was on the right side, but he definitely gave reasons to doubt that.

He's not nice, but he is noble if that makes sense... It's hard to think of someone like Snape being noble, but if you think about the sacrifices that he made for Lily and Dumbledore, and ignore his pettiness toward Sirius and Harry etc, then I think he is.

Snape is actually one of my favorite characters. He's got such a depth of character and so much confliction that he's intriguing to "watch" throughout the series.

after sirius died, snape was one of my favorite characters...

Becky you are so right. Snape is definitely noble, even when he isn't so nice to most people. The only person that was ever nice to him was Lily.....and that left a whole in his heart, I think.

Kathy wrote: "I think that the reason why Snape is so back and forth is that his feelings for Harry are mixed up. He loves Lily and will always love her, therefore, he will do anything to protect her child........"

What a great analysis. One thing that I found very interesting was an interesting clue. In book 4, the impostor Moody has a foe glass. I assume that this was actually showing Barty Crouch Junior's foes and one of Barty's foes is none other than Snape. Based on what a fantastic job J.K. Rowling has done of leaving clues for us, I would say this is intentional. It was a clue that Snape is actually an enemy to the greatest supporter of Voldemort. Gotta say, I really love this discussion because I really think Snape is one of the truly human characters in this book. So many of the others are really caricatures. Malfoy and his evil henchmen. Dumbledore, always right and never failing. Even Harry always does what is right. But Snape is really human. He does noble and honorable things, but also petty, mean and sometimes evil things. Truly in my top 5 characters.

Mitchell wrote: "...So many of the others are really caricatures. Malfoy and his evil henchmen. Dumbledore, always right and never failing. Even Harry always does what is right..."

Hmm... I can see what you mean, but I don't see the characters as caricatures. Every one of them has flaws and quirks and conflicting emotions that make them human.

Harry has a bad habit of judging people, and has a really hard time changing his mind. He has a terrible temper and takes his aggression out on his friends and family. But he also has a huge amount of compassion and empathy for other people and animals, so if he feels that they are being mistreated, he will do everything he can to help them. He's had a hard life, and knows what its like to suffer, so he wants to spare people that as much as possible.

Ron could be looked at as the standard side-kick, but I don't see him that way. He is loyal to his friends, but also really jealous of Harry (who is also jealous of Ron- they both want what the other has!), and lets his emotions rule him and get him into trouble. Ron's sense of humor and his "prophecies" are some of my favorite parts in the series, even though he is ALWAYS wrong when he tries to predict what will happen. He is my absolute favorite character.

Dumbledore has not always been perfect... DD's family was messed up, he fell in with the wrong friends, and in his youth he made a lot of mistakes. He had to learn to be who he is throughout the series. That's why he's always telling Harry that peoples choices make who they are, not their birth.

Snape is definitely the best example of a really flawed & conflicted human character, but I disagree that the others are caricatures because they don't have his level of depth... :)

Mitchell,
I'm curious who your other top 5 are. Snape is definitely at the top for me. I agree he is one of the best characters in the book because he is the most conflicted and deep. On some level I agree that the others are stereotypes, but they are also so well developed that like Becky said they don't feel like it. I love Ron too. After Snape he is my favorite character.

I was SO sad that Dumbledore died (I mean SOOOO sad that I put the book on the tippytop of our book shelf and started blaming anyone I could for it happening. Snape and J.K. Rowling were at the top of my list) Dumbledore was like my hero so when he died I had to have someone to blame. But after a few days when the fact had sunk in and it made perfect sense to me that Dumbledore had to die because Harry couldn't have anyone in-between him & Voldy anymore. It was HIS battle, not Dumbledore's. After that, we discussed R.A.B. and figured out who he we thought he was. (we were right) Finally after we were ready to talk about Dumbledore and Snape, we thought about it and decided Snape was definitely good but a really confused and conflicting character. He is definitely one of the greatest characters in the book!

I don't really think any of the characters are like caricatures. They are written to be pretty human. They all have their flaws and such, and most of the characters really develop over the course of the series. The characters may not be as deep as Snape but they are still not caricatures! :)

I wasn't as upset when DD died... I was HEARTBROKEN when Sirius died though. That scene with Harry in DD's office afterward just kills me, every time.

I remember sobbing my eyes out when I read it, and it still makes me cry to this day when I read that scene. *sniffle*

I was SO disappointed with the movie version. What a waste of film.

I didn't expect to be as moved as I was when Snape died. Very heartbreaking!

I was ALWAYS convinced of Snape as a "non-evil" character. It was mainly due to Dumbledore's faith in him and I was always frightened that he would suffer some terrible fate because he would be found out by the dark lord as a traitor. When he killed Dumbledore I knew it was "under direct order" and he did not want to do it.

I bet a friend of mine a beer that I would be vindicated and of course won. I would have been completly floored if he turned out evil in the end.

The part I did not "get" was his love for Harry's Mother.

-- Wife of GR Author Michael J. Sullivan | The Crown Conspiracy | Avempartha