Middle East/North African Lit discussion

Thanks to group member Robin, we have an excellent site to check out that is directly related to this book. I haven't had a chance to do so yet, but it looks fantastic and could be a great motivator in getting through this book. I've tried to read this book in the past and found it difficult. No pressure or anything, but i'm depending on my fellow readers to make this into a really great and dynamic discussion! :D

Marieke wrote: "Thanks to group member Robin, we have an excellent site to check out that is directly related to this book. I haven't had a chance to do so yet, but it looks fantastic and could be a great motivato..."

I started watching and reading the site about the intriguing mystery novel "My Name Is Red", in which the characters are art miniaturists. I too probably borrowed the book at some point but borrowers' time ran out. I did finish Other Colors by Orhan Pamuk, essays that give an idea of his love for Istanbul and of his interest in art, literature, etc. One of the essays in that illustrated volume mentions that Pamuk's early enthusiasm for art turned to literature; specifically, 'Black Pen' is about a miniature of a folktale in the Topkapi Palace.

Robin, a big Thank You for the extensive introduction to "My Name is Red". I've watched, read, and pronounced everything on the site. Now there's the novel and the closer perusal of Explore 'Connections' (books, art, other).

I am very much enjoying "My Name Is Red." Yes, I'm spending more time than I'd expected looking up names and places with which I'm hopelessly unfamiliar, but the story is quite compelling. I'll have to take a look at the on-line help. Maybe it will save me some minutes-to-hours.

I'm reading another book (for another group) right now. I have My Name is Red and want to read it for this group. When do you think the discussion will get fully underway? (I'm trying to figure out how fast I need to read my current read.)

I'm glad you guys are enjoying it!! I'm glad to have fellow readers in what will be my second attempt.

Alicatte--I'm not sure...I'd like to keep it spoiler free for a few weeks, but I'm hoping for a near-constant discussion because I do think this book is a bit more difficult than most and if we keep talking about it, it will hopefully encourage people to read and keep reading. I am trying to finish a long/difficult book for another group myself and hope to do so within this next week. Then I will begin this one. So you're not alone... :)

Hello everyone , I have a copy of this one , but things are getting crowded for me , so hopefully I will join you by the end of March or the begining of April . this will be my second book for Orhan Pamukafter Snow that it was not an easy read either .

I will start reading it today

I read Snow recently and have this one checked out from my library but haven't started it. My book group in Abu Dhabi had a great discussion on that first book.

Okay, I started it. Liked the descriptive language of the first chapter and laughed with appreciation for the chapter titled "I am a dog". I know I will like this book. Please remind me about the difficult parts, I tend to overlook the deeper ideas and just appreciate the writer's use of words. I hope we do discuss as we go.

I've read it through and enjoyed almost every minute. I struggled with being dropped into the ornate Ottoman Empire of the 16th century at first, but soon got into the rhythm without letting myself be overly concerned about whether or not the place names represented a real as well as an imaginary landscape. The "I Am A Dog" chapter with its distinctions drawn between the dogs owned by their European masters and the free dogs of the Ottoman world is not only wonderful comic relief but also sets up the contradictions that drive the story. I'll stop there and await instructions.

I read this book a few months back, and was surprised that I didn't like it as much as I thought I would... Don't get me wrong; I did enjoy it, but I didn't 'fall in love with it.' Like some other readers mentioned earlier, my first book by this author was also Snow, which I LOVED. I look forward to seeing what everyone's thoughts are on My Name is Red. :)

Sometimes, passing from one book to another, we find something in the latter quite serendipitously that serves to elucidate the former. Such is the case with this passage from Pam Houston’s latest entitled Contents May Have Shifted: "Istanbul is the only major city in the world that is situated on two continents. Since 330 AD it has been the capital of the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire,  the Latin Empire, and as recently as 1922, the Ottoman Empire." Maybe we all knew that; maybe we didn’t; maybe we knew but hadn’t thought of it in quite so concise terms.
What we have in the novel is a very deep connection to a place, Istanbul, that is not only the heart of the Ottoman Empire but also a crossroads between East and West, a meeting place for ideas that may come into conflict with each other or may gradually and almost seamlessly merge into one another.
We learn in relatively quick order that Black and his Enishte have, in various roles, traveled, and that they have formed opinions that differ in small or large ways from those of some of their peers.
But I’d like to backtrack to that first chapter, “I Am A Corpse.” It took me back, oddly enough, to A Stone for Danny Fisher by Harold Robbins in which the eponymous Danny dies in the first chapter and the rest of the novel is about how we readers came to be at Danny’s funeral. Elegant Effendi is not, in My Name Is Red, either eponymous as to the title nor is he the protagonist, true. But his death is a kind of first cause motive force. From Pamuk’s title, we might assume that Red is the protagonist. Or maybe the antagonist. But then Black puts in such a sudden appearance that we might well be confused. Indeed, Black’s arrival in the text so soon after the murder tempted me to believe that, despite our Corpse’s instruction to “Be curious and mindful,” maybe the mystery of who killed him wasn’t paramount to the story.
As the first, oh, eleven chapters unfolded, I gradually came to the realization that this is 1) a historical novel (I had not read anything about the book prior to picking it up), 2) it is indeed a mystery, and 3) that as “literary” mysteries go, this one tended to be more arty than most. Fortunately, Pamuk manages to provide us with detailed information on the late-16th Century culture of Ottoman Istanbul including the illuminated miniatures.
Later, when more people have read more of the novel, I’ll blunder into some elements of structure in the novel that I find quite interesting.

Terry , that was a very interesting post ! I need to rearrange my time schedule to start this one sooner !

Indeed, Terry is really encouraging me to get started on this! But since i just finished Agaat...i need a short break. ;)

The Agaat discussion helped and inspired me a lot and i'm happy to see that this discussion will be similar. :D

Thank you all for writing, and especially Terry for the intriguing post! I've been wanting to read this book for years, and joined Goodreads in part to be part of this group. I got the book, and have read 5 chapters so far.

I think the style is exquisite, much like painted miniatures. As someone who loves painted miniatures, I enjoy his descriptions of the art.

It's also wonderful to read about the history of Istanbul and the Ottoman empire. I can recommend Nizami's "The Story of Layla and Majnun," a short and well-loved story of Islamic cultures (references to it appear in My Name is Red). I'd really like to read the Shahnameh some day (which is also referred to) -- if anyone else would like to read it simultaneously, let me know! If anyone is interested in Turkish lit. of a later date, I read and enjoyed "Halide's Gift" and would love to read the autobiography of Halide Edib some day (called "House with Wisteria").

Looking forward to more of this discussion ~ melanie

Thanks Melanie for sharing your thoughts :)

God , I must start the book ! !! So many books in the same time !

You suggested interesting books , we have a thread called I want to read this book; anyone would like to join me? , you can post there again if you like , others may join you .

For Shahnameh: The Persian Book of Kings, I think it will be also interesting to bring it up in Poetry - in general - discussion

Glad you joined us :D

Twice i have brought home the new English translation of Shahnameh from the library, but I have never managed to read it. Melanie, i'd definitely be up for that at some point.

Oh--and i'm very glad you found us! I hope you like it here. :D

I have to say this is one of my favourite books. The murder mystery plot is an ingenious way to acquaint the reader with east vs west conceptions of art, amongst other things. I have tried to track Pamuk's sources on the theory of eastern art to no avail. Does anyone in this group have any suggestions or leads that would help?

Taking up an idea I found in Chapter 26, the third chapter voiced by Shekure. I hope I'm not too far ahead of those still reading. Shekure quotes Black, "You used to say that in fairy tales everything happens thrice." The conversation is about love, in particular about the story of Hüsrev and Shirin, but it seemed to me at this point, about a third of the way through the novel, to be something of a key. Threes are rife. After Elegant Effendi's murder, there remain three miniaturists trained by Master Osman and commissioned by Enishte Effendi to create the book for the sultan. Each of the three, Butterfly (fka Sunday fka Hasan Chelebi), Olive (fka Tuesday fka Velijan), and Stork (fka Friday fka Sinning Painter Mustafa Chelebi) were visited by Black after his conversation with Master Osman in which Osman sets out the three questions he would use to test a young painter, questions about 'style', 'time', and 'blindness'. Black asks each of the miniaturists one of these questions and each tells him three stories in response. Red, personified, given voice, relates three things that inhere to color: "Color is the touch of the eye, music to the deaf, a word out of the darkness." I found it worthwhile to pay attention to the threes and to consider the fairy tale connection.

In the west, the Anglo-European version anyway, many of us have been brought up with an understanding that there are three taboo topics of conversation at the dinner table: Religion, Politics, Sex. A fourth probably belongs in the group: Art. Each of these subjects is bound to generate debate, heated debate possibly. Of course Art entertains each of these precisely because they challenge us to consider our objections and taboos.

"[Y]ou can describe sexual intercourse in all sorts of ways and play with words and feel like you’ve sidestepped the taboo through symbolism and generalizations. That’s fine but there is something more powerful and beautiful than that — a precise and direct portrayal of intercourse. I’m not talking about pornography, of course not; I’m talking about a precise description of the act. This is very useful, very rich; it cannot be dispensed with."
― Sonallah Ibrahim in response to a question posed by Camilo Gomez-Rivas in an interview for Banipal 43 [http://arablit.wordpress.com/2012/03/...]

Chapter 26, where I left off my thoughts on the novel, delivers Shekure and Black in conflict over the sorts of sexual activities that Black may have picked a up penchant for in his travels. Now all the major taboos are on the table.

Chapter 31, "I Am Red," located very nearly at the heart of the novel, looms.

Just started last night , a very quick start (one chapter) , hope to be able to move fast that I know this will not be an easy task .

Terry ,

I will get back to your posts when I move forward , your notes about art joinning the three taboo was interesting !

BTW , Thanks for Marcia's link about Sonallah Ibrahim's interview

OH, I've been wanting to read My Name is Red!!! This is such a fantastic group, so it would be wonderful to read with all of you, but I may not be able to start the book until next week. I'm almost done with a 1000 page book, and should be done in less than a week.

I hope it's not too late to start!!! And I can get My Name is Red on my Nook!!! Yay!!!

It is ok Barbara , I've just started and we have a month ahead of us for discussion :)

BTW , how is your health now ?

Nile daughter wrote: "It is ok Barbara , I've just started and we have a month ahead of us for discussion :)

BTW , how is your health now ?"

Hi Nile Daughter!!!

Thank you SO MUCH for asking about my health!!! Actually, I'm still not 100 percent, and still have some health issues that will hopefully improve, but I'm definitely feeling better than the last time I posted here (shortly after I had broken my wrist!!!)

Lately, if it's not one thing it's something else, but I guess that's what life is all about!!

How have you been?? I've missed you and the others in this group. Such wonderful people in this group!!

How are you enjoying My Name is Red so far???

Warm regards,
Barbara

Barbara wrote: "Hi Nile Daughter!!!

Thank you SO MUCH for asking abou..."

Great to know you feel better even if not perfect ; yes ...that's what life is all about!I hope you will feel better and better everyday .

Thanks ,I am fine and we missed you here too :)

** I only read 4 chapters so far (I was busy lately) but I think I will like it ; we will see .

The most confusing one was chapter 3”I am a dog” . now I need to find more about “Bihzad” and the story of “Husrev and Shirin” . also more about the general atmosphere in Istanbul in the 16th century and “Nusret Hoja of Erzurum” .

BTW, does anyone know about Orhan using iconic names ? like colors , “My name black “ …”My name is Red” , I remember one of the main characters in “Snow” named “Blue” .

Just got my copy of My Name is Red, and I'm hoping to read it in time for the group's schedule!

okyrhoe wrote: "Just got my copy of My Name is Red, and I'm hoping to read it in time for the group's schedule!"

:D

i'm supposed to be leading this discussion and haven't managed to start yet. i want to start when i know i'll be able to give it a good amount of attention--should be by next week at the latest.

the discussion that has already started will definitely help me, i know!

Nile Daughter--you read my mind. i was having the same question about Pamuk and names as i skimmed over the table of contents yesterday.

Marieke wrote: "Nile Daughter--you read my mind. i was having the same question about Pamuk and names as i skimmed over the table of contents yesterday."

I skimmed over the table of contents yesterday as well and this seems definitely a feature , his novel Cevdet Bey ve Oğulları has been produced as Turkish television drama lately , the main story is about Cevdet Bey sons : Kuzey and Güney (north and south) :)

I have been wondering if the title was an allusion or if the color red was in some way culturally representative or significant. Plumbing such depths as the Internet provides I ran across a reference to the flag of the Arab Literature Club founded in 1909 in Istanbul. "Its flag was horizontally divided white-black-green-red. The four colours of the flag refered to a poem by Safi al-Din-al-Hili (1278-1349): 'White are our acts, black our battles, green our fields, And red our swords.'"

Terry wrote: "I have been wondering if the title was an allusion or if the color red was in some way culturally representative or significant. Plumbing such depths as the Internet provides I ran across a referen..."

Thanks for the info about the flag of the Arab Literature Club , could it be related to the Flag of the Arab Revolt ?

Colors here have different indications , all Arab Caliphates while the Ottoman Empire was not , more to do with politics.

I've just finished reading the 9 (3x3) parables on style time and blindness (see post #20 by Terry) and I have to say I couldn't concentrate well enough to figure out who's saying what or what side of the moral/aesthetic argument they are on.
I'll probably have to pause midway through the book and re-read, when hopefully it will be clearer to me who these three artists are and how their position/beliefs differentiate.

For now, I found the chapter "I am a Tree" particularly interesting.
The concepts discussed there I interpret as being heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy, especially the allegory of the cave (thanks to Islamic scholars those classical philosophical texts survive to this day). But the way the ideas are expressed by the tree are quite "modern". In addition to the aesthetic/philosophical discourse there is an emotional aspect, the voice of the tree speaks with an authenticity that some of the characters, speaking in the first person, that we've heard up to this point, lack. For some reason I was particularly touched by the "tree" point of view!
I am tempted to interpret another layer of meaning in this chapter, as if the tree could be Pamuk's own point of view on art/reality in this passage; the characteristic hilosophical yet melancholy tone of his book Istanbul which I identify in this particular chapter here.

Another moment when I thought I could discern Pamuk's own voice, a bit further into the book, when Shekure's young son (the fictional character "Orhan") consoles his mother on the father's/husband's protracted absence. Again, this reminded me of Istanbul, where Pamuk describes his own father's extended absences from the family home, away on "business" trips, or preferring to stay at his private apartment (which later became Pamuk's "artist's studio"). A somewhat melodramatic touch in My Name is Red, but also a particularly private acknowledgement on the author's part.

I just started My Name is Red last night on my Nook. I didn't get a chance to start reading until pretty late at night, so I only read the first chapter -- "I Am A Corpse" -- but even though I have only read the first chapter I have to say that so far I'm loving the writing style. (I'm sure it's too early to make a statement like this, but it's always a good sign when you enjoy the first chapter of a novel.)

I found myself highlighting many lines in this first chapter, because I really loved the comments about life and death and the "afterworld" -- very interesting so far.

I'm looking forward to getting further into the book so that I can share some thoughts here.

Is anyone else reading this on the Nook? Marieke, I think you have a Nook -- are you reading My Name is Red on it???

I'm up to Chapter Five -- "I am Your Beloved Uncle" -- I just started this chapter last night.

I want to read all of the posts in this thread, but I'm not sure if there are any spoilers.

Orhan Pamuk is an exquisite writer, in my opinion, just based on the first five chapters of this book (I have not read any of his other books.) I really love his writing. As far as his "story telling" I have not read enough to comment on this, but I have definitely been enjoying the characters I've been "meeting" so far. (It seems that these first five chapters, and maybe even a few more after this one, are introductions to the characters in this novel.)

I have a few questions that maybe some of you who have read the book or are currently reading it will be able to answer.

In Chapter One, "I am A Corpse", we meet Elegant Effendi (who is the corpse.)

Then, when I was reading Chapter Two, "I am Called Black", I was under the impression that this was the same person (the same voice) as in Chapter One, and I simply thought that Elegant Effendi was referred to as "Black." I assumed that Chapter Two was a "flashback" of Elegant Effendi's life, and that he is telling us (in this chapter) that he was away from Istanbul for 12 years and that he had returned. He talks about his "beloved" and we find out that this "beloved" is his cousin.

The cousin he's in love with is the daughter of Enishte Effendi, and Enishte Effendi is "Black's" uncle.

The "corpse" is Elegant Effendi, so since Black is Enishte Effendi's nephew and Elegant has the same last name as Enishte, I assumed that Elegant was the nephew (meaning, I thought Black and Elegant are the same person.) that Elegant Effendi is the nephew.

So are "Black" and "Elegant Effendi" the same person???? I'm confused!!!

Actually, as I'm typing this post, I'm realizing that maybe Black and Elegant are relatives of some sort, or it's just a coincidence that Elegant and Enishte have the same last name. I'm starting to realize (this is all happening as I'm typing this post) that Elegant and Black must be two different people.

First of all, I just realized that Enishte Effendi is the MATERNAL uncle of Black, meaning that Black's last name would probably not be "Effendi."

SORRY!!! I hope I'm not confusing everyone.

I just skimmed through Chapter Two and I'm realizing now that Black said he "made" books and that he located miniaturists and calligraphers to work on the books, but Elegant describes himself as a "master miniaturist" and/or "master illustrator" while it seems that Black is more involved in the business side of books, as opposed to the artist side.

There's a line in Chapter Two where Black tells us the following -- "If it weren't for the love of illustrating and fine books that my Enishte instilled in me during my youth, I could have never involved myself in such pursuits." But now I'm realizing that just because Black loved the illustrations and the books, it doesn't mean that he became one of the illustrators.

Okay, so having said all of the above, does everyone else agree that Black and Elegant are two different people, and it just took me a while to figure this out???

Another reason I was confused as to whether or not Black and Elegant are the same person is because in Chapter Five, "I am Your Beloved Uncle", the uncle, or Enishte, tells us the following about Black -- "....I understood that books pleased him [Black], and this brought us together. As those in the house used to put it, he would serve as my 'apprentice.' I explained to him how miniaturists in Shiraz had created a new style by raising the horizon line...." And Enishte also lets us know while he was "training" Black he informed him of the following -- "....my point being that a miniaturist who took up a brush without the care and diligence to read the text he was illustrating was motivated by nothing more than greed."

SO, again, it's a bit confusing, but it's funny because as I'm typing this post things are becoming more clear to me. That Elegant was a master illustrator/miniaturist and Black was involved in the actual publication or "making" of the books, by hiring the best illustrators and calligraphers.

I hope someone will respond to my post and let me know if I'm correct!!!

It's interesting, because this book received many very mixed reviews. I saw some one-star reviews, and some five-star reviews, and some in-between. But many people wrote that they just couldn't get past the first few chapters, and I'm wondering if they gave up because it's a bit confusing.

The "I am a Dog" chapter confused me, but again, I'm finding so much beautiful prose in this book that I don't mind feeling confused (not at this point, and I hope I continue to enjoy reading this all the way to the end!!!)

So we have a corpse that talks to us (the readers) and a dog that talks to us. Does this book fall into the Magical Realism genre?? I can't imagine how it could NOT be considered Magical Realism. Yes, I know that a lot is based on history, but in a "magical" and "fantasy" sort of way. Any comments on this???

Again, this is my first Pamuk book, and I'm not sure which "genre" or "category" his writing style falls into. I looked him up here on Goodreads to get a description of him and his work, and I don't recall the word "Magical Realism" mentioned when he and his work were described. It talked more about his background and the awards he's won for some of his work.

I'm looking forward to getting further into this book, and I hope someone will respond to some of my questions!!!

THANKS!!!

Hi Barbara,

This may clarify some of your confusion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effendi .
Also, Enishte = Enişte (Turkish spelling) = brother-in-law (also aunt's husband?).

Middle Eastern (and Asian Indian) societies make distinctions between maternal and paternal relatives. The titles of aunts and uncles will indicate if they are from the mother or father's side, and these distinctions sometimes play a significant role in the case of children being orphaned, or one parent becoming a widower.

I checked my paperback copy and there is no glossary. Hmm...maybe the publishers should have considered including one.
But my edition (Faber & Faber) does have a detailed historical timeline at the end of the book, and it has saved me the effort of looking up many names I am not familiar with, such as the "Blacksheep Tatars" and the "Whitesheep Tatars" mentioned in the text.

Hi Barbara (and welcome back!!), i do have a nook, but i have a paperback copy of this book already, so i'll be reading that instead of on the nook. however, i might consider getting it on nook if i'm (again) unhappy reading the paperback edition that i have. i tried to read it once before and struggled...part of me wonders if i was unhappy with the formatting...smallish print and narrow margins and a tight binding. blah. :(

i plan to start tomorrow or tuesday, so i might join you on the nook! :D

I'm enjoying everyone's comments and updates on their progress. I have heard quite often that Pamuk is already a difficult read for native Turkish speakers and many also have a hard time getting into his books. If natives already have that issue then I admit that I'm at least thankful to be able to enjoy his works in translation at all. :)

I listened to the link Robin posted and Marieke posted in message 1, it was very useful , the discussion not only about Art , but identity , the relation or the intersection between east and west , the question of identity and what Turkey represent until today .


Also I am keeping in mind Terry's posts (20 , 21) and Okyrhoe (33), BTW I also thought of Pamuk's own voice while reading” I am Orhan” but I didn’t reach such depth you mentioned .


So much to think of while reading this book . what was the 16th century to the Ottoman Empire and the rule of Suleiman the Magnificent .

*I am about to read "I am a Tree", so far I find “Shekure” character to be very interesting.


Barbara ,
For” Enishte” , I believe it is as Okyrhoe mentioned , here in the book “aunt's husband” =the husband of Black’s mother sister , but so many characters call him “Enishte” in the novel as well .

As Natacha mentioned Pamuk is not easy to read even for native Turkish speakers , my Turkish friend who advised me to start with “Snow” told me that as well .

Barbara wrote: "I found myself highlighting many lines in this first chapter, because I really loved the comments about life and death and the "afterworld" -- very interesting so far...

The "I am a Dog" chapter confused me, but again, I'm finding so much beautiful prose in this book that I don't mind feeling confused (not at this point, and I hope I continue to enjoy reading this all the way to the end!!!)

Does this book fall into the Magical Realism genre??"


I think that “I am a corpse” and “I am a dog” gives more highlight on Pamuk religious believes or philosophy, there were heavy amount of this in “snow” and I still can’t tell if Pamuk is an atheist or a Muslim . But the thing I got from “I am a dog” was his sarcasm from rigid clerics’ reactions and directions which I guess will be more obvious later when we come to figurative art.

I don’t think this novel fall into the Magical Realism genre, but we will see by the end.

Historical novels are, I think, are about the age they were written. History is an excuse for talking about today in a disguised form and to see the problems differently.
― Orhan Pamuk, http://www.learner.org/courses/worldl...

The gaps in my knowledge of literature out of Southwest Asia are legion. This novel is my introduction to Pamuk. I’m looking forward to the insights of those of you who have read more of Pamuk’s work and who have obviously read widely in the broader context of Middle Eastern literature out of which his work derives.

Based on my experience with western literature, titles matter. That there is a chapter title, “I Am Red,” that mirrors the title of the book as a whole, My Name Is Red, captures my attention.

We know by the time we arrive at chapter 31, even if we haven’t looked at the chronology at the back of the novel (at least in my copy), that the principal point in history that Pamuk has chosen in which to set the piece is Istanbul in the late 16th Century. But by many contrivances the author also introduces other time periods. In the opening lines of the “I Am Red” chapter he plunges back another 600 years to the time in which Firdusi was completing the Book of Kings. This would seem to suggest that the sorts of intrigue that surrounded Firdusi’s Book are at play in Red as well. Red, as narrator, says, “I’ve been everywhere and am everywhere.” I read this as a literal/figurative statement that applies, in the literal sense, to the pages of that seminal text by Firdusi, illuminating, as it were, scenes that would otherwise be, both literally and figuratively, colorless. Likewise, but more in the sense of literary trope, Red’s everywhere covers the grand scope of life itself: “. . . it’s as if I command the world to ‘Be!.’”

Reading the “I Am Red” chapter, I was constantly reminded of a collection of essays by Jeannette Winterson, Art Objects. I read the latter quite some time ago, but, as I recall, the tenor of the essays therein was that art ought to challenge the status quo. Red considers the difference in how the “use of a variety of red tones to depict the red of a caftan” by the artists of Venice was not a threat to the legendary masters because “we believe in only one red.” But obviously in the present era of the novel, 1591, beliefs are being challenged.

And there I find myself reminded of a passage from Ursula K. Le Guin’s The Telling, “Belief is the wound that knowledge heals.”

okyrhoe wrote: "Hi Barbara,

This may clarify some of your confusion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effendi .
Also, Enishte = Enişte (Turkish spelling) = brother-in-law (also aunt's husband?).

Middle Eastern (and ..."

Thank you, Oky Rhoe!! The information you shared was very helpful!!

Yes, a glossary in the book would be great. I'm reading this on a Nook, and I also have a timeline in the back of the book, which I have found very helpful.

I'm only up to chapter 14, but so far I'm really enjoying this book so much!!!

Marieke wrote: "Hi Barbara (and welcome back!!), i do have a nook, but i have a paperback copy of this book already, so i'll be reading that instead of on the nook. however, i might consider getting it on nook if ..."

Hi Marieke!! It's great to see you again!!

If the formatting in the paperback edition makes it difficult to read, I would definitely recommend reading it on the Nook. I've been enjoying this book so much, so far!! I'm up to Chapter 14, and I don't know -- maybe I'm missing something but I haven't found it as difficult as everyone has been saying it is!! (But maybe I'm speaking too soon -- I still have a long way to go in this book, so maybe I just have not arrived at the difficult parts yet!!!)

One of the things I've been loving about the Nook is the highlighting feature. Sure, we can highlight whatever we want in a paperback or hardcover book (as long as it's a book we own, as opposed to a library book), but when you highlight in the Nook you can go to the "highlight" section and see all the highlights right there, in case you need to remember who a certain character is, or a certain situation.

BUT, the problem I'm having with the highlighting feature is that THERE IS SO MUCH TO HIGHLIGHT in this book, and I think my Nook can only handle a certain amount of highlights per book (which is one problem I have with the Nook -- I don't think highlights should be limited, and I'm wondering if it's because I have the "Simple Touch" which is the least expensive version.)

So each time a new character is introduced, I highlight the name (so that I can go back and remember who he/she is if they are not mentioned again until later on), but I've also been finding so many beautiful lines and paragraphs about art and beauty and love and so many other wonderful things that are written here.

I know I've already said this in previous posts, but this is my first of Orhan Pamuk's books and I REALLY LOVE the way he writes. I'm finding this to be such a beautiful book.

It's getting late, but I will be back tomorrow or over the weekend with some specific comments and questions regarding the story.

Nile daughter wrote: I think that “I am a corpse” and “I am a dog” gives more highlight on Pamuk religious believes or philosophy, there were heavy amount of this in “snow” and I still can’t tell if Pamuk is an atheist or a Muslim . But the thing I got from “I am a dog” was his sarcasm from rigid clerics’ reactions and directions which I guess will be more obvious later when we come to figurative art. I don’t think this novel fall into the Magical Realism genre, but we will see by the end.

Thank you, Nile Daughter!! It's interesting -- I was wondering whether Pamuk is a Muslim or an athiest as well. Yes, I have seen a certain amount of sarcasm about the Cleric and even about the Koran, which would lead me to believe that maybe he is an athiest. If he's a devout Muslim, I don't know if he would be able to write some of the things I've read so far in this book, BUT, the other side of that is that as a "true artist" he may be able to remove himself from his religious and/or philosophical beliefs while he's writing. (Although it's difficult for me to imagine that one can separate their art from their beliefs.)

Is it true that dogs are considered a bad omen in the Muslim religion, or that dogs are looked upon unfavorably?? I have many friends who are Muslim, and ever since I read the "I am a Dog" chapter I've been meaning to ask them about this, but I've been so busy with work this week that I haven't been able to ask. Maybe someone here knows the answer to this?

As far as this book (or any of Pamuk's work) not being considered "magical realism", yes, you are definitely correct about that. It's often difficult for me to determine whether certain books fall under "magical realism" but I when I looked for descriptions of Pamuk and his work he is described as a "post-modern" writer, but never as a "magical realist."

Have you finished My Name is Red yet? I love Pamuk's writing so much that I'm already trying to decide which of his books to read next. Did you enjoy Snow more than My Name is Red? Maybe Snow will go on my list as the next Orhan Pamuk book to read, although I do have to say that one of the reasons I'm loving My Name is Red so much is because it's about art and literature. I'm a painter and I've studied art history, and I also love old fables and parables, so the subject matter of this book couldn't be more perfect for me.

Yes, I too marked the book in many places! I've just finished the novel but need to go back and skim over all the sentences and passages I've marked.

Like the characters Black and Master Osman* who search for the identity of the murderer in the nostrils of a painted horse, there are many words, images and symbols that caught my attention.

Colors as names, fauna as names, the autobiographical names of Shekure, Shevket & Orhan, numerous phallic symbols, recurring dualities (two illustrated books have been commissioned, one known and one secret; Shekure has two suitors, two sons, two houses), etc.

(view spoiler)[While reading the book as a "mystery" novel, I suspected for a while it could be possible that some character not identified -to the reader- as an artist who is involved in the painting of the miniatures was actually working on the secret illustrations. Does anyone else have this impression? (hide spoiler)]

I am unable to figure out whether there is a symbolic significance to the well in which the corpse is thrown. From Pamuk's Nobel prize acceptance speech:
"The writer's secret is not inspiration – for it is never clear where it comes from – it is his stubbornness, his patience. That lovely Turkish saying – to dig a well with a needle – seems to me to have been said with writers in mind. In the old stories, I love the patience of Ferhat, who digs through mountains for his love – and I understand it, too. In my novel, My Name is Red, when I wrote about the old Persian miniaturists who had drawn the same horse with the same passion for so many years, memorising each stroke, that they could recreate that beautiful horse even with their eyes closed, I knew I was talking about the writing profession, and my own life."

Later on in the same speech Pamuk refers to the origins of inspiration, whether it is human or divine. This could be a point to consider for the author's religious beliefs.

Besides the discussion on tradition vs. modernity, east vs. west, art vs. reality, etc. in My Name is Red there's also mention of the controversy surrounding coffeehouses and the dangers of frequenting them (or being accused of such).
I didn't pay much attention to this until I chanced upon a documentary on the history of coffee on TV the other day, just as a Turkish scholar was describing the significance of coffeehouses during the Ottoman era. I'll have to go back and re-read the passages about the storyteller in the coffeehouse, and the pictures of the dog, etc. that he uses as props for his recitation...

information on Ottoman coffeehouses:
A Sufi tradition from Saudi Arabia to the Ottoman Empire.
An introduction to the coffee-house
Turkish Coffee History during Ottoman Empire Era
Coffehouses: Rethinking the Public and Private in Early Modern Istanbul


*"Ottoman" is derived from the name of the ruler Osman I, regarded as the founder of the empire. He is referred to also as Kara, which means black in Turkish (and representing courage). Another duality.

I've just finished chapter 14 , wow ...those artistic chapter were heavy !

The three questions about "style , time and blindness " were confusing indeed , and I couldn't comprehend all the message , I –too- highlighted some parts and took notes !

Yes , the chapter "I am a tree " was special " I don't want to be a tree , I want to be its meaning " , I wonder if abstraction was the main issue in here ? that I thought of a quote by Leon Battista Alberti (15th century) : " No one would deny that the painter has nothing to do with things that are not visible. The painter is concerned solely with representing what can be seen." and the blindess concept in the novel .

- I tried to find more about "Ibn Shakir" but couldn't reach any further data , the portray of the fall of the Abbasid Khalif and the Mongolic destruction of Bagdad treasures from over the minaret was fascinating to me !

-Terry

You so much a head and you always push me thinking by each post to read further , I am waiting for that chapter "I am Red" since I listened to that show .

there are so many Persian books and legends that were mentioned so far , I feel like googling all the time and I am sharing the same gaps with you .

***
The historical context

Since the sixteen century when the time the Ottoman Empire reached huge expansion, extending its borders deep into Europe and North Africa. Advanced military , flourishing economically and culturally , and high level of interaction between between eastern and western culture , Pamuk picked this Era for a reason and I am trying to explore more what he reaches and want to say.
While reading this novel ; The Enchantress Of Florence: A Novel keeps popping in my mind - not they are the same and Rushdie is even more disturbing to read to - but getting closer between east and west during Renaissance was the common issue .

***
Barbara ,

Yes , Pamuk is confusing when it comes to religion , he is not as obvious as Rushdie since I read for both .

This is my second novel for Pamuk , I only read "Snow" and here is my review if you want to check it .

Wow, you are a painter :) I am waiting to hear more from you then , I am an Architect , and yet I don't feel familier with what I am reading at all .when it comes to Islamic Art , there was concentration on Arabesques , and I didn't have a chance to read about miniaturists work before , may be because it is related to books not buildings that Aniconism was a dominate feature of Islamic art .

- For dogs , you can find more in Here , I hope it can explain some how , for me they are not bad omen at all .
****
Okyrhoe ,
I need to come back and read your post again, and I wish to hear more about your interruption for the names function and duality in the novel . (you note about Black was very interesting !) .

BTW , the ruler Osman is pronounced in Arabic "Othman"
عثمان
And " Ottoman empire" is "Othman empire" in Arabic .
الدولة العثمانية

Wonderful discussion. I've had to delay reading this in favor of some other books for now, but I own a cpy and can read it when I wish.

Hi Everyone!! I'll be back tomorrow with more comments and responses, but for now I just wanted to share an interesting link:

www.metmuseum.org/collections/galleri...

If you check out this page and browse around at some of the other Islamic Art pages on the Metropolitan Museum of Art's Islamic galleries, you will find TONS of information on the exact art we're reading about in My Name is Red. Also, there's some very interesting information on the Figurative Art brought from the West, and the reasons it was not well-accepted in the Islamic World.

Okay -- I need to run now, but I will be back with more comments and responses to your posts, which are so interesting. I just thought you would all find the info from the Met Museum very interesting.

I am interested in the symbolism of colors in the novel. White and black represent both being and nothingness (life and death), although differently in different cultures. Red represents blood, passion, and fire. In nature, red represents ripe fruit as well as poison and mating/reproduction. This website http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/i... has some interesting information of the symbolism of different colors, as well as how they have been produced since the beginning of time.

Constance wrote: "I am interested in the symbolism of colors in the novel. White and black represent both being and nothingness (life and death), although differently in different cultures. Red represents blood, pa..."

Constance, THANK YOU for sharing this link!! It's fantastic!!

I tried to save it to my "favorites" or my "bookmarks" but I wasn't able to do so for some reason. THIS is a website I'd love to spend a lot of time on!! Fascinating information.

I'm not very familiar with the symbolism of colors, but I'm hoping to be much more familiar with it by the time I finish this book!! (Unless Orphan Pamuk wants us to do our own research on it!!! I'm only at Chapter 26, so I'm around halfway through and I have no idea what Mr. Pamuk has in store in the upcoming chapters.)

Thanks again for the link to such a great website!!!

Nile daughter wrote: "I've just finished chapter 14 , wow ...those artistic chapter were heavy !

The three questions about "style , time and blindness " were confusing indeed , and I couldn't comprehend all the messa..."


Hi Nile Daughter,

WOW -- You're an Architect??? I would LOVE to have the talent (and brains) to be able to be an Architect. What an interesting and creative profession!!

Yes, I'm a painter, but I would NEVER be able to do the type of work the miniaturists in this novel were doing!! I usually use a somewhat large canvas and paint mostly abstract expressionist work (my favorite abstract expressionists are from the "New York School" and some of their European friends -- Jackson Pollock, Willem De Kooning, Rothko, Gorky, Kline, and the rest of that "gang.") So my style is influenced by some of these painters, and even some of the French Impressionists, but this is not my "profession" -- it's my "fun thing to do" -- I don't know if I have enough talent to ever make a living with my paintings (but you have no idea how much I would love to make a living this way, and just PAINT all the time!!!)

In your post -- Message 45, thank you SO MUCH for your link on dogs and for the link to your review of Snow. I haven't read the Snow review yet -- I wanted to ask you first if there are spoilers in the review. I'm REALLY enjoying Orhan Pamuk's work (just based on the first 26 chapters, which is where I am right now, of My Name is Red), so I would love to read more of his books.

You also mentioned Salmon Rushdie in your post. I'm curious which of his books you've read. Believe it or not, I have not yet read ANY of his books, but I've been meaning to for a long time. I've been told that Midnight's Children is his best. Do you think so???

How far are are you in My Name is Red at this point? In your last post you said you were at Chapter 14. You mentioned that you don't feel familiar with the style of painting discussed in the book, but I think as you read further on a lot of it will become more clear.

In Message 47 in this thread I posted a link to the Islamic Art galleries at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and if you have a little time to browse through the galleries you'll see the illuminated books there, and there's also an explanation of the problem the Islamic world had with figurative art from Europe. I hope you find the link helpful!!!

There are so many things I want to write about the story of My Name is Red, but I've been swamped with work and I've been feeling so tired lately. I'm going to read a little further tonight, and sometime this week I hope to put some thoughts on the characters and the story into a *SPOILER* here, because I know that everyone is at different parts of the book right now.