GeekMom discussion

This is our last week of discussing "The Hobbit" for the very first month of the GeekMom Book Club. Next month, GeekMom Ariane will be leading the discussion of "The Eyre Affair" by Jasper Fforde.

Here are my final questions on The Hobbit:

From The Hobbit discussion on shmoop.com: Tolkien’s work has been criticized for having basically no major women characters (except maybe Luthien Tinuviel, in the Silmarillion, which was published after Tolkien’s death). This is particularly true in The Hobbit, where the only woman mentioned by name is Bilbo’s mother, Belladonna Took. How might Tolkien’s tone and content change if he included a few lady hobbits, elves, or dwarves in this adventure? Why do you think he didn’t include them?

Also from shmoop.com: Tolkien’s goblins and elves seem to embody evil and good. It would appear to be impossible for a goblin to be good or an elf, evil. What do you think of the morals of this concept? Should genetics really have so much power over individual morality?

Bilbo goes through a massive change from the beginning of the book to the end. How do you think he has changed the most and what do you think has stayed the same with him.

What was your most favorite and least favorite part of The Hobbit and why? And for the first-time readers, did you like The Hobbit?

I imagine that most women of that era were pretty boring (only certain things they are allowed to do) and thus don't quite fit into a children's action/adventure novel. Also - being a children's book - he probably didn't want to get too deep and relationships can be very, very deep.

And didn't tolkien himself say that if there were female dwarves you wouldn't be able to tell anyway?

I'm not sure it's as much genetics as it is who you grew up with... if you're surrounded and raised by helpful and kind people, you are more likely to be helpful and kind yourself. But, I do think tolkien lumps all goblins as bad and all elves as good. As above, he probably didn't want to get too deep and it's convenient to say "a horde of goblins" which will give the immediate picture of nasty things whereas "a group of men" could be almost anything. (And aren't goblins and orcs hand-made by Sauron?)

Bilbo's change? I would just say self-confidence. He didn't become more wild or more adventurous. In fact he was quite happy to remain at home by himself for nearly the rest of his life. But I think he got past worrying about what his neighbors will think!

Favorite parts. When Bilbo goes to see the dragon and has finally conquered his fear of the world. When Gandalf tricks the ogres (btw, you can find the 3 ogre statues in Lord of the Rings Online... I was so tickled). When Bilbo gets a cold and sneezes while wearing his ring. When Bilbo steals the Arkenstone and prevents war (probably was more terrifying for him than going to see Smaug).
Least Favorite. Not much! The flighty elves because they're different from the ones you encounter in LOTR.

First answer: Women were not "big parts" of society back then. Clean the house, cook the food, watch the kids...BORING reading material :) (I beg to differ. Try being a mom. Nothing boring here) Plus the story would change completely as women make sure that on any adventure, we over pack. It would lose some of it's appeal if so.

Second answer: I think Tolkien intended to portray that one can be bad or one can be good. It's a children's book and I think it was like any other "fairy tale" where there is good and bad characters. Which one do you want to be? I don't think that it was necessarily genetics that caused it just easier to have good and bad characters for children to easily interpret.

Third: I think Bilbo changed because he realized that there was more to the world than just his hole. I agree with Bettina about the self-confidence change. He has done so much in so little time that he now knows no matter what comes his way, he can handle it. He just prefers to sit and drink tea!

My favorite part was when Bilbo went to give the Arkenstone even though he had little knowledge of what was going on. It ended up being just the right thing at the right time.

Least favorite: the songs that I skipped over. To many of them.

I have really enjoyed "The Hobbit" this time around. I have a better understanding of it now that I am older. On to the next!

I will have to answer these questions piecemeal while I think about them.

First question regarding female characters. When I read this question on the original post, I thought for sure my answer would have been unpopular -- but apparently I wasn't the only one who thought that Tolkein simply didn't want to invest the time in delineating male vs. female characters. I don't think he regarded them as boring -- I just don't think he thought about them at all.

I'll write more later.

Wow, everything at once!

1. The culture is very male-centric, and you wonder if among 13 dwarves maybe they could have sprinkled in a few women, but not if the culture doesn't reflect that. I think it would bug me more if there seemed to be token females shoehorned in to a plot that doesn't really fit them in this culture.

2. Is it genetics or culture? Goblins seem to revel in being bloodthirsty, but their whole culture revolves around that. And elves have a culture more attuned to arts and such... though I will argue that the elves in the Hobbit are more enigmatic than the ones in LotR, more like they could go either or any way, like humans, rather than being strictly good.

3. Like someone else said, there's the self-confidence, but even more than that he's become more of a LEADER as the story goes on. It starts out he's kind of pulled along on everyone else's scheme, he's kind of hapless and helpless and everyone's just humoring him, but by the end he's making decisions, coming up with plans, figuring things out, telling everyone else what to do-- and they're LISTENING to him. I think he was intimidated by the dwarves at first, but by the end he's seen that they can be stupid or petty or weak or confused as well, and he's not afraid of anybody anymore. Well, within reason. He'd still rather be comfortable.

4. Not sure. One favorite moment that stands out for me is right when they're entering Mirkwood, because I was having a bad day when I was reading that and couldn't really concentrate, but STILL the description was grabbing me and making it come to life in spite of my not-being-quite-into-reading. I also was particularly fond of any of those moments, later on, when Bilbo WAS clearly taking charge of the group and showing just how far he'd come, character-development-wise.

I too will admit to skipping most of the songs. The pacing felt funny to me sometimes this time through, too. But to be perfectly honest my actual least favorite part was realizing exactly HOW much time Bilbo spends invisible, reading with the upcoming movie in mind: I have this weird problem with anything Martin Freeman is in, where I become REALLY ANTSY anytime he is off-camera, just waiting impatiently and irrationally for him to come back-- but I realize this is entirely a personal problem of mine and has no bearing on the actual book itself.

My weird story is that I'd completely forgotten the last three chapters. I'm not sure why-- maybe I hadn't actually finished my previous rereads? Maybe I stopped caring after the dragon was slain? I don't know, but somehow reading the last three chapters was like reading a COMPLETELY NEW BOOK. I had NO idea where they were going and what was going to happen!

Continuing...

2.) Genetics or culture? I definitely see a little of both. I actually like very much that some of Tolkien's characters are definitely good and definitely bad. IIRC, the elves are a bit more complicated and I'm not completely sure that they're overwhelmingly "good".

3.) Bilbo changed the most with his leadership/gutsiness/growing-a-pair-ness. I feel similar to Rockinlibrarian in that respect. He was used to being responsible only to himself while in Hobbiton, and over the story, he develops an allegiance to his companions. Otherwise, consider all those times he could have simply found his way home once he saved himself from the spiders/Wood-elf-king/goblins, but instead took time to consider his companions. On several occasion he even debated going back to save everyone, and each time he opted to help the team.

4.) My favorite part? The accounts of the dwarves as they're coming down the river and washing ashore. It's an odd answer, I'm sure, but I was definitely laughing out loud!

Least favorite? Definitely the songs, although I keep promising to go back and study the lyrics because I'll bet there's all sorts of Middle Earth history to be had :-)