Exceptional Books discussion
Book club - Flannery O'Connor
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A Good Man is Hard to Find
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Colleen
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Apr 10, 2012 02:46PM
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What personality traits do you see in the family members? What part of the story shows that?
Can you identify with any of the characters?
I'm trying to figure out how to format this thing and making myself crazy, but for the sake of getting started, we'll put it here and move it later if we need to. Fair? Besides, I'm not highly invested in having a section with my name on it and this may draw more members:) She's more widely know than me even though I've outlived her by 9 years and am still upright:)
My neighbourhood is under siege by Misfits plural and i've been offered all this overtime i'm too poor to turn down so i'll respond later. Flannery is notorious for her lack of empathy and that's why people love her and hate her. I have a second of empapthy for Bayley Boy when son kicks the seat while dad's driving, but that's it. I hope I have the right story and i hope my town has not made the national news although i think we're on BBC.Nothing like death to make a person famous:
F Scott
Class of 27
Virginia Woolf
N. West
kerouac
Some people think John Lennon was klled for marketing purposes, and i think they're serious.
PUBLISH OR PERISH.i HAVE STORIES AND BOOK REVIEWS PUBLISHED BUT NO BOOK. But I have a job with medical benefits. Kerouac said for writing Coffee coffee and more coffee but coffee made me sick at a wake and it's not good for you but K drank himself to death it wasnt the coffee that killed him and i'm not recommending coffee.
Ephedra was good but they took it off the market and i'm glad they did because a little dose made my heart race and no writing is worth that.
They say ephedra is like viagra but i prefer celibacy ... no love is worth those heart palpitations.
How did i get from Flannery to celibacy.SPEC; FO had a debilitating disease that might have made her celibate and surely added to her cynicism.
I think she died at 39?
I think she was Catholic in the Protestant south?
A famous football player got in trouble in her home town in Georgia. I used to be a fan of his and i hope marriage has made him a better person. Time will tell.
NOw i'm off the topic again and the nuns out of my past are looking down on me from heaven and glaring.
''Stick to the point Chuck''
More after May first. I'll be reading but maybe not responding.
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You have the right story Chuck! I'm glad you're not an author right now, with the misfits loose in your town:) You could be exterminated for publicity purposes then our club would be 25% smaller and that would be no good:( So, be a A Good Man. They're hard to find. Where do you live?
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i HAVE STORIES AND BOOK REVIEWS PUBLISHED BUT NO BOOK. But I have a job with medical benefits. Kerouac said for writing Coffee coffee and more coffee but coffee made me sic..."
For reference, here is a legit link to all of her short stories: FREE! http://www.faculty.armstrong.edu/read...
You're not sounding like you need any directions to the coffee pot, so I'll leave it there:)
Kristina wrote: "Discussion question: What characters do you find sympathetic/unsympathetic? Why?"I have the book and I've read all of the stories at least once before and I have a strong impression of how things go ... but ... my memory is not what it once was so by tomorrow evening I'll have it re-read.
What I will say is this: I first read these stories as a 14 year old and although I thought they were great, they freaked me the heck out. Fast forward 15 years to when I last read them and I found a lot more of the humour.
Can I see a show of hands? Who is the more sympathetic character: the grandmother or the Misfit?
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I have the book and I've read all of the stories at least once before and I have a strong impress..."
Can't help you. Grandma had me raising my hands to go where she wanted when the misfit had them removed. Gosh!! If that isn't a challenging question. I guess the misfit put everybody out of grandma's misery.
I didn't find any of the characters particularly appealing or sympathetic. (Except maybe the baby who was sympathetic merely by being totally innocent.) The grandmother was off-putting from the very first. She was so superior and selfish and so judgmental, I found her really hard to tolerate. She saw herself as the ultimate authority on what is good and what is "ladylike." It's ironic that by her sneaking the cat into the car (another selfish act) she was ultimately responsible for all the family deaths. The son came off as a total wimp, and the wife was completely passive. The children were quarrelsome and irritating. The Misfit actually came off as the most real of the characters. He knew he was evil and took responsibility for it in his own way.
Flannery O'Connor was a Catholic in the predominantly Protestant South. I believe she was rather devout. She died at a young age from lupus.
Flannery O'Connor was a Catholic in the predominantly Protestant South. I believe she was rather devout. She died at a young age from lupus.
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For me, the grandmother epitomized a quality that is pretty common. Someone who, even in their kindest moments has an underlying self serving motivation. If there's any Christian symbolism in that, for me it's that apparent intent and purity of motive don't always line up.
I see it in people quite often. How many people go to church or other places for an APPARENT purpose, but are actually seeking opportunity to "package their wares" or "strut their wealth"? If it wasn't true, then a crashed in fender wouldn't stop people from pulling in places they normally do and neither would 20 pounds or a bad haircut.
Flannery O'Connor has a way of making a character have concentrated amounts of character flaws. She dresses them completely in "accessories" of personality so that we really, really see it. Somehow, I think I have flubbed this but can't think of a better way to word it.
My thoughts - please feel free to disagree:That the grandmother was such a stock character - the mother-in-law from hell - was sort of disappointing. Told from her perspective, we never learn the mother's name ("the children's mother" ) and she doesn't even address her directly - their only definite exchange is when the grandmother offers to hold the baby. She's manipulative and petulant and shows absolutley NO self-awareness whatsoever. She seems entirely unconcerned with the discomfort she knows she is causing her son when she decides she wants to bring the cat, when she wants to take the side-trip, etc. That she knows she is annoying him is pretty evident but her main concern seems to be how enraged he will be with her.
So maybe she isn't just the archetypal mother-in-law. Manipulative (oh yeah, there's a secret panel) but her concern for how her actions will affect others extends only to how they will ultimately come back to affect her. And self-important! Yes, that hat will ensure that everyone knows you're a "lady". Basically, she sounds like a psychopath. Not a particularly dangerous or sadistic one, but a psychopath all the same.
I suspect she "recognized" the Misfit in more ways than one. Except he had a degree of self awareness she lacked.
And there are parallels. The Misfit has two strange dudes do much of his dirty work for him, while the grandmother knows precisely how to manipulate the two children to get what she wants.
Heck, I could go on for ages: what's up with the stuff about Jesus raising the dead? Is he implying that if Jesus can perform miracles there's nothing to do but follow him (i.e. die)?! and if he can't perform miracles then there's no religious reason to make morally good choices - there's "no pleasure but meanness"? Does this imply that the mere idea of religion - regardless of its truth, forces you into that (totally bizarre) choice? Or am I being a bad atheist and seeing something that isn't there?
Okay, someone else take a shot at it.
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That the grandmother was such a stock character - the mother-in-law from hell - was sort of disappointing. Told from her perspective, we never learn th..."
Yay! Some more participation! I agree with your character analysis. Grandma is a narcisist.
Regarding the religious implications, for me I see an anthropological view: religion in any culture serves to impose a moral compass on a society at large so that people have a structure to function in and consequences for failure to do so. Kind of like the characters in Wise Blood, the misfit seems to know this or think this and lacks a scholarly vocabulary to express it.
That's one thing I totally love about Flannery O'Connor. Always reminding me that uneducated does not mean unintelligent.
The misfit's logic to me says he isn't "forced" into bizarre choices, but more like a hedonite, has no reason not to indulge in any urge that takes him.
Love it Kato!! You really got me thinking.
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WHAT IF...Just WHAT IF we are all assuming the misfits killed the other family members and they didn't? What if they took them out in the woods and sounded off shots and Grandma was the only one that died? That would put a whole different spin on things wouldn't it?
I'm going to hit the hay cuz my brain is obviously short circuiting, but tomorrow I may investigate a little and see if this has ever come up in Literary circles.
What a brain you have! However unlikely this ending is, I like it from a purely karmic point of view. Only the grandmother gets it in the end--I love it!
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It was just shots and screams wasn't it? And the misfit did say that he didn't think he killed his dad even though the government claimed to have evidence. That was in a day when they were keen to bag a suspect quick, right?
What if, as readers, we did the same thing grandma did? Contempt prior to investigation. I don't know that I would argue this against a lit professor, but if I was his attorney and that's all I had...he'd only get it for one count. Grandma.
I know I'm coming in a little late on this one but here goes. That would be a twist if the grandma was the only one killed but what would the motiviation be for the misfit to do that or direct his thugs to not kill the others, unless he knew how utterly annoying the Grandma was and understood the innocence of the family??? I just think it was utter evil and self-indulgence on the part of the misfit.
Also ironic that the self-righteous grandma ended up getting them all killed. May I say that I love all of your comments. I am just a C.P.A. that likes to read so don't have the lit background it sounds like a lot of you have, so I have a lot to learn from you all which is why I joined the group.
Kristina wrote: "apparent intent and purity of motive don't always line up"Seems to me that when people go to great lengths to seem one way or another, it's because they know they are not that way. Often, the person you most wish to convince is yourself. Been there and done that.
Kristina wrote: "religion in any culture serves to impose a moral compass on a society at large so that people have a structure to function in and consequences for failure to do so"
Hmm. I more or less understand the purpose of religion. But I still don't understand how the Misfit fits into it. He definitely has an understanding of religion on some level - was probably raised with it - and has turned his back on it. But in that particular passage where he says "Jesus was the only One that ever raised the dead," he is reasoning. I just don't understand what his argument is exactly, regardless of the fact that his reasoning is likely unsound. It's that weird bit of reasoning I can't seem to get my head 'round.
OK, now I'm thinking that the "reasoning" bit was just a set up for the bang-pow moment where he reveals that he's a crazed killer because he thinks he ought to have faith and dearly wants to have faith but can't. "[I]f I had of been there I would of known and I wouldn't be like I am now." That is, his lack of faith (needing to see it with his own eyes) prevents him from having faith (in a higher power) which would result in stricter observance of a moral code.
I'll just be thinking aloud over here.
Laura wrote: "I know I'm coming in a little late on this one but here goes. That would be a twist if the grandma was the only one killed but what would the motiviation be for the misfit to do that or direct his..."Never too late. Welcome!
I agree there was really no way for the Misfit to know enough about the family to make decisions about who to murder and who not to murder. And as cold-blooded killers go, the Misfit doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who's going to be particularly discerning about who he kills. Less judge and jury, more flat-out executioner. Once he was recognised (by you-know-who), it was game over for the whole family.
ironic that the self-righteous grandma ended up getting them all killed
You said it! And boy, she had to do a lot of wrong-headed things to make it go as badly as it did. First take the cat, then promote the side road investigation, and THEN tell the Misfit that she recognized him. D'oh!
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BTW, EXCELLENT insights coming in from all of us so far. In my opinion:)
I would be genuinely interested to know if she thought that the bleak tenor of her stories is a byproduct of her own prognosis or whether she thought it was something else.
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It seems like some authors that die fairly young end up having more written ABOUT them than they ever wrote, and a great deal of the discussion is about that very issue. There's a group on GR reading "Letters of Flannery O'Connor" that were published post humous.
Do you think maybe when someone knows they have a limited time that they give themselves permission to dance a little closer to the fire, so to speak?
Flannery O'Connor was raised in the bible belt I think and was a very devout Catholic in a heavily populated Protestant area. Regardless of church affiliation, I think she was holding a mirror up to the world around her. She took the attitudes and flaws that prevail all around and made caricatures out of her characters.
A very dark form of Southern Gothic humor. But humor everywhere is based on reality and especially the realities people are not comfortable with. Ergo, jokes centering around beauty, race, religion.
It would have been really cool to see her world view and expression of it evolve through her 40's on up.
Excellent question!! I don't have the answer tho:) Really glad you came in and can't wait to see how the others respond.
I think I agree with Bill in that they were her own prognosis of life in the south, with very flawed characters who just portrayed life as she saw it could happen with some very harsh humor thrown in. Does that make sense?
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Perfect sense. It seems like we have all expressed the same basic idea with our own unique take on it. I have a tendency to use 100 words where 12 would do:)
Apologies to my Buddies on here. I had a down day today and am throwing in the towel early tonight. My back hurts so bad I can't think straight. Too long in the chair the last few days of tax season I think.
I think our book group is shaping up nicely.
But I think your 100 words are so eloquent, don't stop writing them. Good luck with your back, been there. Are we skipping around in the Flannery O Connor or going straight through. I rather liked the 3rd, "The Life You Saved May be Your Own. Mr. Shiftlet was very shifty and quite amusing.
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One had something to do with reconciling the "old school dogma" with today's science and how neither one can really fully support itself nor rule the other out. I don't know if it's Flannery belief or her commentary on the inner struggles of people. More can be found here http://www.flanneryoconnor.net/ssrevi...
Oh!! One other thing: The grandma dressing herself for death, to be recongnized as a lady: Is this a commentary on the south? More important how you look at the end than how you really are during life? Anyone who read tobacco road will remember the mother being obsessed with a "dress to be buried in". So this theme has been present in other Southern Fiction.
In reading about Flannery O'Connor's life I learned that Thomas Merton was a great fan and admirer of her work. Thomas Merton is a fascinating character himself. He became a Catholic brother and had a very interesting journey of faith. He also died very young. His memoir, The Seven Storey Mountain, is exceptionally well-written and I would recommend it to anyone.
Hi, everyone. Sorry I haven't had a chance to post to the discussion yet -- busy with end of semester grading and whatnot.I've read this story several times over the years, and one constant that I find is that every time I reread it, I feel less and less sympathy for any of the characters (except the baby, as someone mentioned above). The grandmother is a self-righteous, manipulative control freak. The kids are obnoxious, disrespectful, and mouthy. Bailey and his wife allow their children to be disrespectful of the grandmother, which shows that the parents either can't or won't correct the children, or they know that the children won't listen/obey anyway so they don't bother. Or, the parents condone such disrespect, which makes me like them even less. The wife... Hmmm... Not much backbone there, huh? But, considering the time period and Southern Gothic style, I suppose that's to be expected.
The Misfit and the grandmother seem to be the sources of virtually all negative emotion and negative consequence in this story. They share certain qualities -- like faulty memory and a nostalgia for the way things used to be -- that further link these two characters. They're both the manipulators of their respective groups. And they're both trying to reaffirm or rationalize a past that they can no longer make sense of -- the Misfit knows he was being punished for something, but can't remember doing anything worthy of punishment, so he's committing crimes to give the punishment meaning, while the grandmother tries to reconnect with her bygone days by leading the family to their doom before remembering (quite belatedly) that the road she was thinking of was in a different state. Because these two characters are so linked and because of the consequences of their manipulations, I've always thought of them as the chaos factors in this story.
Some things I've always wondered -- what would have happened to Bailey and his family if the Misfit hadn't been following them? Why was the Misfit following them in the first place? Did he follow them from the main road, or did they just happen to cross his path after the grandmother had Bailey turn off into the woods?
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I've read this story several times over the years, and one constant that..."
Wow! I've often thought that FOC was holding a mirror up to society/culture. It hadn't occurred to me that was a potential theme within a theme. Her characters HAVE been confronted with a mirror image of themselves even if they didn't recognize it (in my experience people usually don't).
Now that you shone a light on this, I can't NOT see it. And yes..the possibility of destiny bringing you face to face with yourself sooner or later. The parents were passive in their deaths and the children followed.
This view you showed us has all kinds of potential for further exploitation...and now I'm thinking it may be not just a vein, but an artery with a pulse in all the stories. Thank you!!
Kristina wrote: "Kato wrote: "My thoughts - please feel free to disagree:That the grandmother was such a stock character - the mother-in-law from hell - was sort of disappointing. Told from her perspective, we..."
Late to the party, everyone. Don't you think that there's more going on with the grandmother than just a stock nasty mother-in-law or a narcissist? To me, the story revolves around her. In all of O'Connor's stories, Flannery, as a Catholic, sees duplicity in the protestant culture of "good Southern people". We can think we are good, when we actually have problems with sins like prejudice, selfishness, gossip, etc. The problem is that we may not see these "petty" sins for the spiritual dangers that they really are; they reveal a lack of faith and a lack of true Christian love. O'Connor usually evokes violence to show the characters (and us, as readers) that we all need grace and have no room to look down on anyone else. She also tries to show us that we must live consciously faithful lives and not just drift along with the culture. She confronts her characters with evil so inescapable that just relying on comfortable southern traditions isn't enough; they have to choose either to dig deep to find a real relationship with God or perish in some way. I think for O'Conner, it's better to have your blinders ripped off than to go through life deceived.
When you are facing the Misfit, you can't save yourself by pointing to someone else -- i.e. someone from a lower social class or a different race -- and saying, "See, I'm better than they are. That makes me a good old boy or a good old woman." In the face of tragedy, things like class distinction and Southern morays don't matter. Tragedy is without discrimination.
So, I think the Grandmother stands for the Old South, which was sort of passing in O'Connor's day but sort of still is with us. The Grandmother dresses primly, while her daughter-in-law wears slacks. She considers herself to be a good person with a good ancestry, though we get a hint that she might be making some of her family lore up. Yet, she hides the cat, gossips about people, etc. Her pride takes the family on the detour where they meet the Misfit. The Misfit, as horrible as he is, is who he is without pretense. The grandmother's hat falls apart during this process. Despite the fact that she is, on the surface, what most of us would think of as a "fine Southern woman", her faith is as flimsy as the hat. It falls apart.
The Misfit, too, is changed, though. He comes away from the encounter with a little different perspective after interacting with her. I'd be interested to know what y'all think of that.
So, the Grandmother and the gas station attendant keep referring to "good people". But, in reality, a good man is hard to find, even in a culture of good old boys and sweet Southern grandmas. As Ecclesiastes says, "I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright,but they have gone in search of many schemes.” Or, as Romans says it, "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and all are justified freely by his grace."
I think O'Connor does love the culture she's writing about, but she thinks that maybe we all do need a wake up call. The violence in this story and others can be hard to take sometimes, and I don't always agree with the way she makes her point. Her writing is exquisite though, I think.
Kristina wrote: "I've spent more time trying to think of good questions than answers. I found a great discussion that may hold insights for all of us, especially Bill's question: The following is in reference to th..."Yes, I think the way the Grandmother dresses is a really important part of the story.
Pam wrote: "Hi, everyone. Sorry I haven't had a chance to post to the discussion yet -- busy with end of semester grading and whatnot.I've read this story several times over the years, and one constant that..."
I think that's the point. They are all self-righteous, in a way. They all justify themselves in their own minds, but are they really good? A good man is hard to find; we all need grace and rebirth. I love the comment that the Grandmother meets a mirror of herself, only darker and without the pretty "dressing" that the grandmother puts on in a number of ways.
Pam wrote: "Hi, everyone. Sorry I haven't had a chance to post to the discussion yet -- busy with end of semester grading and whatnot.I've read this story several times over the years, and one constant that..."
That last question is a good one. I always thought that the grandmother's begging to take the detour put them in the Misfit's path. That makes sense to me, since her motive is in the myth of being a fine Southern woman that she's created for herself. But, maybe, he was following them.
I know everyone's on to The River, and I'm still pondering A Good Man, but I just read someone else's interpretation of the story that hones in a little better than my earlier comments did. I was going on memory and had forgotten some details of the story that really make it fall into place for me. I'll re-read the story soon. The Grandmother changes; she sees herself as she is; she actually extends compassion to the Misfit.
The Misfit jumps back as if bitten by a snake. The symbolism there is obvious. He refuses the compassion extended to him.
He realizes something that people with shallow religion don't; if Jesus is who he says he is, then we should give it all to follow him. He chooses not to. The Grandmother, in her way, chose not to give it all for Christ, either, until the end.
The Misfit comments that she might have been good if she'd had a gun pointing at her all of her life. What a telling line! We fear death, but impending death sometimes makes us look at life honestly and spurs us to make things right in our relationships. The worst thing is not to die; it's to live and die without experiencing Christ's compassion and extending it to others.
I wonder if Flannery knew she was dying when she wrote that. Certainly, she knew she was ill.
When I said the symbolism was obvious, I meant the connection of Satan and evil with snakes and that Satan refuses God's grace and compassion, as do people who harden their hearts to God's goodness. They jump back from God.
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I think that's true. It's like God is a 911 option. Like so many people that fail to exercise caution, watch their kids, etc..are the first to pick up 911 when things go to crap. But when we are comfortable, we often forget the One we call to in discomfort. Something like that. I think she did know she was dying. Her father died from the same thing. The singer Seal had a form of lupus when he was younger. The kind that messed up his face. Serious disease.
Kristina wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "When I said the symbolism was obvious, I meant the connection of Satan and evil with snakes and that Satan refuses God's grace and compassion, as do people who harden their hearts..."I have a good friend who has suffered from Lupus sine she was a teen and is now a wife and mother with teenagers. She's faithful and joyful, but I know that she suffers quite a bit. So, O'Connor's history is pretty poignant to me. I did not know that the problem on Seal's face was from Lupus. It's so true that it is a serious disease.
Hi all, I haven't been on lately. Have we gone on to the next story?
