Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

I personally have not read any books by either C.S. Forester or Patrick O'Brian, but I know a lot of people have and this group is all about its members.

So here you are. A thread dedicated to these sea going authors.

Who do you prefer, Forester or O'Brian?

Which is your favourite book by either of these authors?

Which is your least favourite?

How many of their books have you read? All, a few, just starting out?

If you are looking for more authors of the naval or sea faring kind, please see the Historical Naval Fiction thread.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...
C.S. Forester


Patrick O'Brian

I've not read any of C.S. Forester's books, but I have read of all Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series. A small word of warning - the first bit of Master and Commander is very technical and nearly lost me. But if you can get past the first 50-80 pages, then you're money.

I may give it another try, then. I know a lot of people who rave about O'Brian, but whenever I try that first book, it just never grabbed me enough to finish.

Love Forester, though. I got hooked on him in grade school; didn't understand the nautical terms, but didn't care. All the swashbuckling action juxtaposed with such a moody complicated melancholic hero; just wonderful.

Did you guys watch the Russel Crowe movie of Master and Commander? I don't like Russell Crowe, AT ALL, but I felt the movie was fairly enjoyable.

D,
How did the movie compare with the book?

I enjoyed the film, but it was actually a mash up of three of the books (Master & Commander, Far Side Of The World and HMS Surprise). In addition, the film was set during the Napoleonic War while the books are set closer to the War of 1812. Having said that, you will be able to identify moments from the film as you read the series. You'll also have moments of "hunh, this happened to a different character in the film" or "those who read the books before the film must have been surprised this didn't happen here". On the other hand, the 'feel' of the books and the Aubrey/Maturin relationship are spot on.

Wow. Sounds like they really stuffed around with it. That's so Hollywood. I hate it when they do that. I don't mind a little deviation from a book, but I think that is going too far. Why didn't they just write their own movie....welll, no, hang on....actually, lol, it seems like they practically did. :-)

I enjoyed the scenes when they came through the Roaring Forties at Cape Horn. The big waves. Good special affects.

There was recently a show on tele about the people Patrick O'Brian modelled the characters and they Peter Weir did explain that the studio suggested the change of period because they felt Americans might not go see a film where an American ship is defeated by an British one, regardless of history. Personally, I'm unconvinced and think that the studio was wrong.
Something I forgot to mention is that the books are half on land and half at sea. The reason the film didn't include the life on land bit was due to film length, but once you read the books, you'll see that in this case I think they made the right decision on that count.
I do hope you enjoy the books.

Sounds like Kate may give Master and Commander another go, but I am sort of on the edge....I never like nautical themed reads as I don't like the mental restriction of being on a boat. I can handle it in small doses, but in books as well as in life, I am a land lubber. I prefer books that are set on land mostly.

Our fellow A&M member, Dawn, who is away right now travelling through Europe by train and is due back at the end of the month, she is very much into the nautical reads right now. I am sure she will love that she has fellow O'Brian and Forester fans to chat to. :-)

Terri wrote: "I don't like the mental restriction of being on a boat. I can handle it in small doses, but in books as well as in life, I am a land lubber. I prefer books that are set on land mostly..."

You might enjoy the first and third in the Hornblower trilogy:


Beat to Quarters
Hornblower is sent to South America to possibly assist a dictator who is opposing the Spanish. El Supremo (the dictator) is, to say the least, a trifle odd. There is a lot of cerebral interest there, and Hornblower (not your classic hero) is interesting in this story. You also encounter Lady Barbara Wellesley ('Hookey's' sister). Some sea encountrs (naturally) lots of intrigue on shore.

The second, Ship of the Line, is good, but mostly seagoing.

The third,
Flying Colours

Follows Hornblower's escape from the French (imprisoned after he lost a battle with the French at the end of Ship of the Line.
He and his second escape, make their way to a French Royalist's home, and stay for several months until they are able to get to the sea and then back to England.

Forester handles intrigue, internal actions - thoughts and emotions - and human nature deftly.

I read the first five of the O'Brian series, and enjoyed them. The man could write, and his descriptions - for example, a seagoing battle with a Swedish man of war on heavy seas - are superlative. The story line, though, got a little 'perils of Pauline', rather like the Hornblower saga.

Thanks for the recommendations. If I do decide to have a go at either Forester or O'Brian I will check these out.

Terri wrote: "...Our fellow A&M member, Dawn, who is away right now travelling through Europe by train and is due back at the end of the month, she is very much into the nautical reads right now. I am sure she will love that she has fellow O'Brian and Forester fans to chat to. :-) "

That is true , I am happy others have read them though I haven't quite got to Master and Commander yet. Loved the movie (and Paul Bettany).

I definitely like the Hornblower TV show better than the books though I like the books too.

I think it would be difficult to find better writing than O'Brian.

I have heard he is very good.

Terri wrote: "I have heard he is very good."

He is Terry. For some he's over-technical, but his descriptive prose is hard to match and the depth of his characters are not something one sees much of in mor contemporary writing. Sorry for the slow response by the way.

I think I really have to get Patrick O'Brian closer to the top of my TBR. I keep hearing such good things about his writing.

Dawn wrote: "I think I really have to get Patrick O'Brian closer to the top of my TBR. I keep hearing such good things about his writing."

I don't want to bring up your expectations too much Dawn, but O'Brian really is very good. In the third book Maturin and Aubrey spend time in India and the author's narrative of Maturin's perceptions and experiences there is the kind of writing I go back and read more than once. The only bad thing I can say about O'Brian is that he may crush any delusions the rest of us may have of one day being great writers.

I don't have to worry about dreams of being an author so I may survive that. :)

I've been doing my best this year to read alot of the naval fiction I've been putting off for years and Master and Commander is one of them. It's one of the few of the classics I haven't gotte to yet.

That's okay, Craig, you caught my post and replied eventually. :-)

That is the problem with being a writer and reading books by great writers. It can be confidence crushing for sure!

Terri wrote: "That's okay, Craig, you caught my post and replied eventually. :-)

That is the problem with being a writer and reading books by great writers. It can be confidence crushing for sure!"

Well, I won't say I write well myself, but I have had a couple people tell me that I should write. After reading the first book of the Twilight series, I was wondering if they may be right, because given that book's success, obviously you don't have to be talented to be successful. But then you read someone like O'Brian and yeah, reality sets in with a crash.

Yep, it's true. You don't have to be talented to sell books. I've never read that series, but many people who love Twilight even admit the writing is awful. :-)

People who like the Hornblower books will probably like The Hornblower Companion.

Thanks for letting people know about the companion, Michael.

A Book of Voyages

This is a book by Patrick O'brian that was recently released in the United States.
Not a fiction it is described in this Barnes & Noble review as: " A Book of Voyages is a collection of excerpts from his favorite civilian primary sources; it has just been published for the first time in the United States. It is well worth having, and for much more than the sheer joy of finding a new book with O'Brian's name on the cover. Its main contents are travel diaries and correspondence from the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. O'Brian's dry section titles -- "Pleasant Voyages," "Unpleasant Voyages" (most of these end in cannibalism), "Oriental Splendor," "Inefficient Pirates" -- give a sense of the delights within. "

For the full B&N review go here: http://bnreview.barnesandnoble.com/t5...

I've just finished The Wine-Dark Sea by O'Brian, and enjoyed it. For authenticity there's no beating Aubrey-Maturin. However, I will state here for the record that the Aubrey Maturin series is the only major age of sail series I've read where I haven't torn through all of the books, in order, in a fairly short period of time. They are great, and beautifully written, and the central friendship is one of the best realised in literature. However, the books don't grip me the way the Hornblower series did, or Richard Woodman's Drinkwater series did for that matter. I can see why the film of Master and Commander played as a 'greatest hits' of the series - there are some heart-pounding moments in each novel, but if it's excitement on the high seas you're looking for, O'Brian can keep you waiting. O'Brian can be a bit 'Marmite', which is to say he divides opinion for those not familiar with the British idiom. To his fans, there's no-one better. Others struggle to see what the fuss is about. I started off in the latter category, but have slowly learned to appreciate O'Brian more.

I love both series, but for very different reasons. It's probably no coincidence that both central characters are about as different as it's possible to be and yet do the same sort of job. Hornblower- austere, introspective, pathologically self-critical, often self-defeating; Aubrey- extravagant, jovial, genial, extrovert and sometimes lacking in self-awareness.

Good review, Matthew. I've always loved O'Brien (and so, I can tell you, has Harry Sidebottom!), and read the lot in under a year when I first discovered the series (it was up to about book 14 by then).

And you're right with the Marmite comment, I guess, it can be a little slow getting to the action, but then I came to love his characters so much I didn't care!

All the best

Tony.

I have always meant to try one of them. I have never been much for being confined to a single setting on the open sea or ocean. Nautical fiction oppresses me usually. But I do still want to try one of them. What reader of historical fiction can call themselves a fan of the genre and not read at least one book from one of these two authors.

Worth a go Terri, so much more than nautical fiction (O'Brien that is). 18th century social mores, sailor humour (some of which leaked through to the Tungrians, i suspect), action, espionage...and that nice Dr Maturin's unexpected skill with...well just read the first one and find out!

ATB

TR

Not that my reading it hinges on this...but do they ever get off the ships? Or is it all ship bound all the time?

Terri wrote: "Not that my reading it hinges on this...but do they ever get off the ships? Or is it all ship bound all the time?"

They get off some times.

Yes, but do they get off the boat?
;)

well yes they get to collect all that dutyfree rum and brandy. :0)

Haha. :D

A lot of the stories' narrative takes place on land. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.

I should move it up the list. Tick it off the reading bucket list this year.

I enjoy both for different reasons. Hornblower is very much a more polite Sharpe of the sea. In fact, Bernard Cornwell states clearly his idea for Sharpe came from his love of Hornblower and that he based his own writing on C.S Forester's by picking apart his sentence structure and paragraphs, creating charts on dialogue, action etc, and wrote out passages of Hornblower but replacing the character names with his own, just to get the feel of the writing.

So if you enjoy Cornwell's style of writing, there's no reason you shouldn't enjoy Forester.

Aubrey / Maturin on the other hand are wonderful works of art. O'Brian was trying to write them in the style of Jane Austen and was an ardent admirer of her work - it shows. The dialogue sounds very authentic for the period, as well as the major social aspects of the novel which are certainly not limited to the sea. Also, he explores deeply the pyschology of the pair - something that does not come through in the film.

Don't get me wrong, I love the film, but it only portrays their strong points: Aubrey - Brave and dashing naval commander; Maturin - intelligent academic and incredible physician.

In the books though they are very dependant upon each other, Aubrey is a rude buffoon, constantly being swindled and making inappropriate jokes. Maturin on the other hand has a superiority complex as well as a drugs problem. Throughout the series they rely constantly upon each other for mutual support, and it's comical to read of their shore going activities and complete ineptitude with the rest of society.

EDIT: That was longer than I intended - sorry for the essay!

Anthony wrote: "A lot of the stories' narrative takes place on land. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised."

I agree. The series even begins on land. What I love is the characters' shifts in strengths and weaknesses between land and sea - it's brilliant really.

My experience with O'Brian was that I had no idea what the hell was going on in the first 50 pages of Master and Commander, but then suddenly, it all clicked and it was great ride. Most people tend to really enjoy many of the other characters in the stories and there are lovely smaller stories within the bigger ones. Spirited away I was.

As for the others - they're on my shelves....

Nick wrote: "I enjoy both for different reasons. Hornblower is very much a more polite Sharpe of the sea. In fact, Bernard Cornwell states clearly his idea for Sharpe came from his love of Hornblower and that h..."

I liked your essay. In fact, this is the best presentation yet I have seen on why someone should try either series, and who may like them.

It has certainly made me keener than ever to try the Aubrey/Maturin series.

Since you compare the Forester writing to Cornwell that puts me off. While I love some Cornwell books/series, I find the writing bad in many others, he is very hit and miss. so I think Aubrey/Maturin sounds more my cup of tea.

I had no idea that O'Brian was trying to write in the style of Jane Austen. I love Austen and it might explain to me why I like O'Brian when I really dislike his characters. He does a fantastic job creating the atmosphere and feeling of the era and time.

Forester I didn't like as much but they were simpler reads and more action packed. I think Cornwell is a good comparison, Sharpe is better in my opinion but very much the same style.
Cornwell even kept the 'idiots with women' character trait for Sharpe that Hornblower has. :)

And I agree with Terri, Nick. That was a great breakdown on the books and characters. Very helpful to those looking to try them.

Dawn wrote: "I had no idea that O'Brian was trying to write in the style of Jane Austen. I love Austen and it might explain to me why I like O'Brian when I really dislike his characters. He does a fantastic job..."

Well thank you kindly ladies both!

That's it though, you've had my mature intelligent thoughts quota for at least a few months - expect nothing but childish gibberish from now on.

That's okay, we can definitely communicate on a childish gibbering level too. ;)

Terri wrote: "That's okay, we can definitely communicate on a childish gibbering level too. ;)"

Did you try Patrick O'Brian again? He is, along with a couple of works by Frederick Buechner (in particular Godric which I consider the single finest historical novel I have read), my favourite writer of historical fiction - and I love the film too!

I haven't read either of those yet - I may have read C.S. Forester many years ago but not sure. However, as far as great sea voyages go and for those who love well researched HF, try This Thing of Darkness by Harry Thompson. Fabulous read. It is on my favorites list. Highly recommended.

On the 4th of October 2016, I started my retirement living aboard a boat. This year starting on the 4th of October and each 4th of the month after, to mark and celebrate my journey around the globe, I plan to read one Master and Commander book by Patrick O'Brian per month.

I am hoping for fantastic stories and learning more about commanding a vessel, navigating the high seas and combating the ever unpredictable weather.

It would be great if anyone would like to join along on this passage through the series, we can discuss here in this thread as we go along.

Schedule:
October 4, 2017
Master and Commander [book 1]

November 4, 2017
Post Captain [book 2]

December 4, 2017
H.M.S. Surprise [book 3]

2018 dates to be determined!

Look at you bringing this thread back from the dead!

I might join you next year, I really need to get a move on with this series but I stalled out after finishing book four 3 years ago.

I'm pretty sure I have books 5, 6, 7 & 8 on audio though.

Ace wrote: "On the 4th of October 2016, I started my retirement living aboard a boat. This year starting on the 4th of October and each 4th of the month after, to mark and celebrate my journey around the globe..."

Hi Ace,
First of all, congratulations on your retirement.

I retired in July 2013. I've traveled around in Europe quite a bit since then, but I've done nothing as adventurous as going around the world in a boat. I don't think I even know which end of a boat is up. So I am thoroughly impressed with your abilities.

I might try to join you in reading the Master and Commander series. But 8 books sounds a bit daunting. It's not the type of book I usually read, but I like going outside of my comfort zone. And since I've read and enjoyed several books recommended by this group, I'm willing to give this a try. So count me in for at least book 1 in the series.

It's actually a 21 book series Tamara.

Dawn wrote: "It's actually a 21 book series Tamara."

OMG!
I'll try book 1 and see how it goes.

Dawn wrote: "Look at you bringing this thread back from the dead!"

They made me do it Dawn, I was thinking more along the lines of a tiny little buddy read thread for me and Simona. LOL. Lucky I'm not a shy girl ;)

Dawn wrote: "I might join you next year, I really need to get a move on with this series but I stalled out after finishing book four 3 years ago.

I'm pretty sure I have books 5, 6, 7 & 8 on audio though."

Fantastic. I would love the audios, they are fantastic on night watch when the kindle light can mess with your night vision.

So you stopped at book 4? Bored or distracted by shiny new books???