The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm an avid reader of fantasy books. Every book I read though follows the same generic rule. The book starts with a "nobody" who turns out to be the hero and defeats evil against impossible odds. In the end good/light prevails against evil/darkness.

So my question to other readers, do you know of any books where it is the opposite? E.g. follow the 'good' hero, but in the end gets slain and evil wins? Or a book where we see it from evil's perspective?

Wicked is a classic example of a tale told from 'the villain's' perspective.Wicked : The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West

The Catch: One Play, Two Dynasties, and the Game That Changed the NFL. Sorry Niners fans- I couldn't resist.

The Dark Griffin and it's follow-up are supposed to be an evil origin story. That said, I can't say I was crazy about them, they were interesting, but a little predictable too often.

Well of Darkness also starts off following someone who falls down the evil path, and is a better written story.

Star Wars: Path of Destruction is told from the point of view of a beaten down miner who turns into a dark lord of the sith. Not sure if Star Wars type fantasy is your thing, but this one was written pretty well.

Talk about spoilers.. You really want to know that before reading?

Terez wrote: "Wicked is a classic example of a tale told from 'the villain's' perspective.Wicked : The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West"

Too bad that book is horrible.

Brett wrote: "Star Wars: Path of Destruction is told from the point of view of a beaten down miner who turns into a dark lord of the sith. Not sure if Star Wars type fantasy is your thing, but this one was writt..."

But that is still a story of a nobody turning into a mighty person. Granted, it is on the evil side. I might try it, I've read a few SW books.

Tom wrote: "Talk about spoilers.. You really want to know that before reading?"

If your reply was to me, I don't consider it a spoiler. As for 99% of the rest of the fantasy books I read, I know good will prevail, so that would be an equal spoiler.

Well if you want a nice twist on the classic tropes might I reccomend

Black Sun Rising
Crown of Shadows
When True Night Falls

I think here you'll find several nice shades of grey rather than the very black and white/good and evil stuff.

Sander wrote: "Brett wrote: "Star Wars: Path of Destruction is told from the point of view of a beaten down miner who turns into a dark lord of the sith. Not sure if Star Wars type fantasy is your thing, but this..."

I was pretty sure he was just asking for the evil perspective not for a powerful person growing weak. That happens in the first books of many series, like The Lies of Locke Lamora

Empress is the first book in a trilogy and the main character is the villain in the other two books. I didn't realize it until the end so it was somewhat disconcerting to have a character descend into darkness like she did. Its a good book though.

For me, if the bad guy wins, it ruins the book.

Skaw, I did read empress, and the next book. I must admit, I didn't care much for them. I don't think it was because of the evil in it. I just didn't care for the way the story was told and some of the elements it contained.

Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy has a rather ambiguous ending. Assassin's Quest
(view spoiler)[
Evil doesn't quite triumph, but the protagonists dreams (and many other character's)are thwarted so profoundly that I found the ending simultaneously teeth grating and satisfying. (hide spoiler)]

Nobody is particularly moral in The Black Company and its sequels.

Those are called Horror, although usually the protagonist survives, but there is a dark note hinting that it really isn't over...

Skaw wrote: "Empress is the first book in a trilogy and the main character is the villain in the other two books. I didn't realize it until the end so it was somewhat disconcerting to have a character descend i..."

True, and a good book too. I found it a disconcerting read as well, so I'm glad to hear that I am not alone there. However, it is the first in a triology where ultimately good triumphs.

The Black Jewels Trilogy: Daughter of the Blood, Heir to the Shadows, Queen of the Darkness has some interesting moral abiguity in it that blurs the good/evil lines. In places a little unsettling, especially in the first book, so be prepared for that.

Philip wrote: "The Catch: One Play, Two Dynasties, and the Game That Changed the NFL. Sorry Niners fans- I couldn't resist."

It's okay. We won!!!! MUUUHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!! MUUUUHHHHAAAAA!!!!

I really liked the War of the Spider Queen series starting withDissolution, it's a bunch of drow vs drow so pretty much either way evil is going to win. However, you will need to get all 6 books because the whole series is pretty much one book;it seems like one book will end almost in mid-sentence and the next one just continues on from there.

Prince of Thorns main character is definitely evil.

I liked The Messiah Stone . The protagonist starts out as a white hat but the in the end he turns evil.

A Dangerous Energy is brilliant, and pitiless. I read it well over ten years ago and bits still stick in my mind.

The Amazon description is a good summary:

"This novel is set in a 20th-century Britain where the Reformation failed and the country is still being spiritually ruled from Rome. A world where magic works. The central character is a priest who is also drug-smuggler, rapist, necromancer, murderer and black magician."

The story follows the main character's life from childhood to his eventual end. The descriptions aren't graphic - it's bleak and unsettling, rather than glamorizing or going for shock value.

Micah wrote: "Philip wrote: "The Catch: One Play, Two Dynasties, and the Game That Changed the NFL. Sorry Niners fans- I couldn't resist."

It's okay. We won!!!! MUUUHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!! MUUUUHHHHAAAAA!!!!"

Et tu, Micah?

I wouldn't classify Song of Ice and Fire as evil winning at all. (view spoiler)[ Granted, I was a bit surprised who all died at the red wedding , but that made for a good twist in the story. (hide spoiler)] Yeah you have different factions, but I wouldn't classify any of them as true evil. Only the creatures beyond the wall.

I would recommend Wicked, the play.

The Prince of Thorns does feature an antihero protagonist. You may even find the euthanizing protagonists of The Killing Moon disquieting enough to root for.

I believe the The Day of the Jackal features a villain, and the tension revolves around hoping the villain will fail at the end. However, I'm not sure as I haven't read it myself.

Cattfish wrote: "Well if you want a nice twist on the classic tropes might I reccomend

Black Sun Rising
Crown of Shadows
When True Night Falls

I think here you'll find several nice shades of grey rather than the ..."

I really enjoyed those books.

Cattfish wrote: "Well if you want a nice twist on the classic tropes might I reccomend

Black Sun Rising
Crown of Shadows
When True Night Falls

I think here you'll find several nice shades of grey rather than the ..."
Such an incredibly good series. The opening of the first book was the first time in my life where I closed the book, put it down and walked away, unable to process yet what had just happened.

Pretty much anything by K J Parker would fit the bill. Everyone is varying shades of gray and I'm not sure anyone really wins in the end, but even some of the most likeable people in her/his books do horrible, horrible things.

I'd suggest The Hammer for a good starting point - it is self-contained.

My favorites are the Engineer Trilogy, but I can see it boring and pissing off a lot of people.

Parker's books are all fantasy, but none of them (that I've read) have any trace of magic, the supernatural, or even much religion. There are no dragons or fantastic creatures. They are like an alternate history Earth where history diverged somewhere in the stone age and everything is different, but the same.

Pretty much anything by K J Parker would fit the bill. Everyone is varying shades of gray and I'm not sure anyone really wins in the end, but even some of the most likeable people in her/his books do horrible, horrible things.

I'd suggest The Hammer for a good starting point - it is self-contained.

My favorites are the Engineer Trilogy, but I can see it boring and pissing off a lot of people.

Parker's books are all fantasy, but none of them (that I've read) have any trace of magic, the supernatural, or even much religion. There are no dragons or fantastic creatures. They are like an alternate history Earth where history diverged somewhere in the stone age and everything is different, but the same.

Louis said "Such an incredibly good series. The opening of the first book was the first time in my life where I closed the book, put it down and walked away, unable to process yet what had just happened." It has been a while since I last read these books, would you mind refreshing my memory on the beginning? You can message it to me if that is not appropriate for this thread. Or just throw it in a spoiler bracket or something. Thanks in advance. :)

I agree with everyone who has mentioned C.S. Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy ( Black Sun Rising, Crown of Shadows, When True Night Falls )

I also really like Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn: The Final Empire. The typical fantasy plot you outlined (a nobody becomes a hero and saves the world from evil) has already happened, before the story even begins. However, the bad guy won. So picture an oppressed people, enslaved to the "Lord Ruler" (the bad guy from the pre-story story) who is pretty much immortal with the power of a god. Ash falls from the sky, life is bleak, etc. Not only do I like the idea, the book itself is great. I read the other two in the trilogy and liked them a lot too, but the first book is by far the best in my opinion.

Without getting too spoilery (though even this much is already a spoiler I personally would've been unhappy about to know in advance) Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy should hold some of what you seek too.

KevinB wrote: "Without getting too spoilery (though even this much is already a spoiler I personally would've been unhappy about to know in advance) Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy should hold some of what yo..."

Definitely. Some people find him too grimmdark, but I like the shades of grey and his subversion of many standard fantasy tropes. This is the sort of series where everyone is, basically, some kind of bad guy.

Sara wrote: "Some people find him too grimmdark..."

I love that word. I thought only 'requireshate' girl used it.

Not that it's unexpected, but the last book of the Elric of Melniboné Saga, Stormbringer, ends (view spoiler)[with Armageddon, everybody--and I mean everybody--dead, and the titular evil sword Stormbringer transforming into a demon and mocking Elric's cooling corpse, saying "Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!" (hide spoiler)]. Moorcock probably invented "dark" fantasy as we know it, though he leaned heavily on Fritz Leiber and Robert E. Howard.

Also, Villains by Necessity was a fun little book that came out around the time Dragonlance and Terry Brooks were really popular, and sets itself up as a humourous inversion of those kinds of stories. There was a great battle between Good and Evil 200 years ago, and Good triumphed. And now the world is steadily "subliming", and will fade away unless the Balance is restored by reintroducing Evil into the world. So the world's last assassin, last thief, last sorceress of a cannibal race, and a black knight are recruited by a druidess to free the Sealed Evil in a Can and restore balance to the world.

Ooh, forgot about Elric. The Elric saga may have been my gateway for liking dark, morally ambiguous fantasy. (view spoiler)[ "Farewell friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou." (hide spoiler)]

Tamahome wrote: "Sara wrote: "Some people find him too grimmdark..."

I love that word. I thought only 'requireshate' girl used it."

Maybe that's who coined it? I don't read her blog (I can't take that much hate!) but I've been seeing that term pop up a lot, recently.

Another--I've never read it, but some people have recommended this to me: Grendel, which retells Beowulf from the monster's perspective.

Æ wrote: "I believe the The Day of the Jackal features a villain, and the tension revolves around hoping the villain will fail at the end. However, I'm not sure as I haven't read it myself."

I'd call Day of the Jackal a "cat and mouse" thriller. Most of the book alternates between the titular assassin's exacting preparations for the job he was hired to do, and a humble French detective's efforts to track him down and stop him. On the one hand, you want the detective to succeed. On the other hand, the Jackal is such a consummate professional with such intricate plans you're almost rooting for him. In a larger sense, both men are dedicated professionals with a strong sense of duty (or in the case of the Jackal, pride in his work), being used as tools by men far less noble than they are.

I really appreciate all the suggestions everyone posted. I will definitely buy some of the books, just to read something different.

Pretty much any Lovecraft stories end with heroes either corrupted, murdered, sacrificed or driven insane. If you can get around the language and potential racism, he's a good source of evil winning, even when it has lost.

I don't remember if evil "wins" per se, but you might check out Dusk and Dawn by Tim Lebbon. And mentioning Elric also put me in mind of Karl Edward Wagner's Kane series.

I haven't read it yet but our June pick Tigana is supposedly much more morally ambiguous then most typical fantasy with characters that fall more into shades of grey as opposed to the "good guys" and "bad guys". At least that's what I've gathered through reviews and the synopsis.

I hear it has 50 shades of grey.

Tamahome wrote: "I hear it has 50 shades of grey."

I like you, Tamahome, but I swear by Odin's missing eye that if you bring up that unholy title again in this sanctuary, I will smite you with thunder and dinosaurs.

The Time Master Trilogy by Louise Cooper has an interesting premise: A fantasy world where Good has triumphed over Evil, but now Good is stagnating. The book tells the story of the aftermath, when Evil tries to find its way back into the world.

Æ wrote: "Tamahome wrote: "I hear it has 50 shades of grey."

I like you, Tamahome, but I swear by Odin's missing eye that if you bring up that unholy title again in this sanctuary, I will smite you with thunder and dinosaurs. "

You'll get so angry your face will go Fifty Shades Darker ;-)

*high fives Tassie*

Tassie Dave wrote: "Æ wrote: "Tamahome wrote: "I hear it has 50 shades of grey."

I like you, Tamahome, but I swear by Odin's missing eye that if you bring up that unholy title again in this sanctuary, I will smite yo..."

If you want the audio book version, check out Gilbert Gottfried: Gilbert Gottfried reads 50 Shades of Grey" (NSFW, or your mental health)

I'd have to suggest The First Law trilogy. If you haven't read it already.

It does have some of that stereotypical genre stuff but by the time i'd finished it I realised that it had mocked and reversed almost every single one of the predictable cliches it had played on.

Evil doesn't necessarily win, but its not exactly a win for good either.