Nothing to Envy discussion

I am only halfway through reading this book.. I looked on wiki: all I could find was that life in North Korea today has not changed a whole lot since the famine in the early '90's which I understand seems to have been brought on mainly because both Russia and China, who once directly subsidized the North Korean government, have ceased to do so.

One change that was noted on wiki: those who have managed to escape to S Korea have become a stream of income to their relatives. Where, in the era of the book, those whose relatives had remained in Japan after the war created a sort of 'middle-class' in N Korea by getting $ to their relatives (a system which has died out), now we have a stream of income from S Korean defectors to their relatives, again creating a sort-of 'middle class' or favored few.

What I don't understand: where is the UN in all this? Where is the US? Why are we not finding ways to help malnourished people who languish in the dark?

Also, the South Koreans do not seem to appreciate those who escape to their country from the North. This book made me very sad. Things were worse than I imagined, and I am a retired world history person. WE, the US, do fund North Korea, to an extent with food. But as long as North Korea continues its march towards nuclear weapons we will not help them much. Like Iran, the people suffer from embargoes, etc. due to their governments decisions. And, as with Stalin's Russia, the Kims role model, the government could care less about its peoples suffering. It made me thankful to be in the USA but like you said, why can't we help more? The USA cannot fix everything. Sorry to sound negative, but the UN is just not capable of doing what it was originally intended to do. It has no teeth, so to speak. And NK is so isolated I doubt they would take any help anyway.

I am halfway through the book and I had no idea the situation in N. korea was and still is so serious. But I don't think it is that simple to help the people starving there because the authorities there wouldn't let anyone help their people. There is a part of the book about the help the UN sent them which they didn't give to the people but kept for themselves or eventually sold to those who could aford it. that is the way totalitarism works. The only way they can completely controle them is to have them isolated from the rest of the world...
I don't think there is peaceful way to solve the problem...

I agree with you Nikolina. By the way, might I ask your ethnic origin. It sounds Russian? You might understand totalitarianism very well. No , a despotic government like North Korea, does not care for its people. Many governments throughout history have kept the aid sent to them for themselves, or what props them up, their military. As you might be reading in this book, the military is everything in NK. For all repressed people everywhere, I pray. I thought I knew quite a bit about NK, but this book opened my eyes to just how much worse the situation is. WE, the world, must keep them and Iran, a theocracy, from getting nukes. How long must the people suffer? It seems you want the UN to be something it is not or cannot do. It has done some good things,, regarding aid and social conflict, but NK is impossible to deal with in any humanitarian /political way. Its isolation ,as you mentioned, keeps the world at bay! Very sad. So I try to be grateful to live in the USA, which is by no means perfect.

I agree with you, I also thought I knew all the important facts about NK but the book showed me that we are not aware of half of the things going on there. It trully makes you grateful that we are born in a democracy that is not perfect, but at least we have some sense of freedom!

I am from Croatia! :) But croatian and russian language are quite similiar

@Virginia, my recollection of the history of this is not 100% accurate, but as far as I'm aware the US did get involved and, alongside the South Koreans, as well as smaller numbers of British, Africans, New Zealanders and Australians, very nearly did defeat North Korea ... until the Chinese sent in waves of troops over the border and drove them back down to the 38th Parallel a bit North of Seoul.

That border's stayed there to this day.

China may not fund North Korea in the way it once did but I think China would be very unhappy if they thought the UN/the US were trying to overthrow the regime there.

Actualy according to the book the 38th parallel border was set by a pair of US army people (one of whom was Dean Rusk) at WWII's end: Russia had troops poised to enter Korea from the north a week before the Japanese surrendered, & US offered to split the administration of Korea [temporarily until the gov was stable-- it had been run by the Japanese since 1910]. They chose a borderline which would keep Seoul within the US's administration. China too became a big influence, but Korea allied more closely with Russia especially after Mao's 'great leap forward' policy caused something like 40mm deaths from famine in the late '50's.

Well, I wasn't 100% sure so thanks for putting me straight on that (I have read the book but I remember more about the lives of the interviewees during the famine years than the backdrop of how North Korea came into being).

I'm still sure I'd heard that the Chinese didn't just support NK troops but actually got actively involved in a clash with SK and US troops (but again it's not something I know a great deal about).

Anyway, either way I think it shows that the UN/US did previously try to get involved and that's (one reason) why they might be reluctant nowadays.

Great book though.

Nobody wants to get involved with North Korea these days. China is its ONLY friend and helps it the most both in a good and bad way. The UN did get involved in setting up the parallel between the 2, but NK has few friends today as they are what is called a rogue state, like Libya was and Iran is also. They do not abide by any international rules. But it seems to me that you are more interested in why/ what the UN did in the Korean Conflict. I am not an expert, but yes, they were involved somewhat, but today, the people have to suffer when their governments will not cooperate. It is sad, but the sanctions approved hurt the people, not the military or government officials. NK s are so brainwashed a la Stalinist Russia( their role model truly) that , as you read in the book, they cannot do anything to change things. And again without anything, but peace keepers, the UN was , is, what those involved in creating it both loved and hated-it has no teeth , well very few , to do anything about a situation such as NK. Yes, the US was mightily involved. It is why we study the Korean War, or Conflict as it is rightly called But since it was so close to the end of WWII and mighty outside powers came in to help NK, we settled for what we thought was the best end to the conflict. Hence we have this awful situation there today. It is just Stalinist Russia in its worst days on a smaller scale.

The US was very involved in FIGHTING in the Korean War, Conflict. I might have been misunderstood. WE are still actively involved at the border, supposedly the scariest and most dangerous place, non active conflict, for our troops today.

Virginia wrote: "I am only halfway through reading this book.. I looked on wiki: all I could find was that life in North Korea today has not changed a whole lot since the famine in the early '90's which I understan..."

We have been sending them food, and if I recall correctly, in the book they mentioned bags of food with USA or something like it on the bags. I also read a lot and watched a lot of videos on N. Korea, so I might be confusing my facts with some other source. Either way, most of the food we send goes to the privileged few and the black market. They don't want us interacting directly with the people in need, so we're unable to monitor the distribution of the food. Regardless, we've tried to help as best we could, but it hasn't helped the people who actually need the help.

The US sends a LOT of aid to North Korea. Opinions are divided on whether or not this is a good idea.

In my opinion, the food aid may be sold on the black market, but a black market is a good thing for North Korea. I think it may actually be worse if the government distributed the food fairly, because then people would have less incentive to overthrow the regime.

I've read several books on North Korea since reading this one, and one I read - The Hidden People of North Korea: Everyday Life in the Hermit Kingdom - said that we should do the opposite of what the regime wants. The regime asks for food aid, and so we probably should not give it.

Katy, I have mixed feelings on your comments. I know the people are starving, and if we give them aid it might not encourage them to overthrow this regime. But as things stand in NK right now, there is NO chance of that happening anytime soon anyway. The ARMY, well fed and well maintained is in perfect alignment with the government and so would not be inclined to side with the people if anyone had an inking of beginning a revolt, much less an over throwing of the regime.( Think 1930s Stalin's Russia) Stalin is the Kim's role model. Food would be used for black marketeering and soldiers are very well fed a I mentioned. Refusing food aid is sad to think about, but in general would not be getting to the regulars anyway. China does help NK to an extent. As far as over throwing their regime, that sadly, is not much of an option. They are so terribly isolated, including, technologically, that they will probably be , in my opinion, the last Stalinist regime to fall. How or when that will happen, this retired history teacher ha no idea. This book really broke my heart. I have read much about Russian camps, but at least she is recovering slowly, but it is sad that states like this, and NK, is not the only one ,still exist today. I think I read the other you mentioned. But even if I did not, I read so much tragic Russian history( my passion) that I don't think I could handle another very depressing book like Nothing To Envy.

I just finished this book, and all I keep thinking about is what I can personally do to help. After reading several holocaust books, I swore to myself that if that ever happens again, I will do something. From what I just read about North Korea, it is happening. I emailed the author and asked her what she thought, as I didn't find very much online. She suggested the charity, Eugene Bell Foundation (www.eugenebell.org). I'm going to start there. Another thing we can all do is try to support those that escape. I'm not sure how to do this, but I'm going to try. I may also see what I can do to fund people that are trying to get people out of there. It's true, it may be impossible to work with the government of North Korea, but I'm sure it was impossible to work with Hitler, too. The point is, all of us that just read this account, we have to do something. We have to tell people and we have to try to stop it. How could any of us that just read that account and see that the dates were 2008, 2009, 2010, and just ignore it. It's happening right now.

I wholly agree Douglas. I so admire your spirit and desire to help. Seems like our government would want to do the same, but politics interferes.:( I will check out the website for Eugene Bell. But I guess , as I think you said, it is happening all over the world and has been for 1000s of years. The oppressed and the oppressors. Remember Rwanda? It's not always good to play the " What if" game, but we surly could have stopped Hitler in 33. North Korea is so isolated geographically also. Hard to even get near it. Just the thoughts of what is going on in Africa, the Middle East, and even right here in America with sex slavery and work slavery is overwhelming. I don't know if there is an answer, but one person doing one thing can help. One of my favorite sayings" The only thing that allows evil to exist is for one good person to do nothing". Keep me/us posted on what you do.

I will, Joy. Thank you! It may be that I just give my money and resources to those that are doing the actual work. You're right about the rest of the world. I'm already supporting relief work in Sudan. But, I can honestly say, I've never seen a starving person in real life as described in Nothing to Envy. Maybe that's why I'm so compelled. It's as if I can see it with my own eyes. That's what's so hard. I think they key is to connect and work with people that have already been doing it, so that's what I'm going to do. I'll definitely let you know what I find out.

Thank you Doug. Yes, it made the starvation so real and the brainwashing. It was equally as horrific as anything I have read about my passion- Russian history and that says a whole lot! I would love for someone to go in and remove these guys, dynasty there, but I know that is not possible and it is a sovereign nation. We cannot do it all anyway. As a retired world history teacher, I too, am sickened by what the evil men do to others. I think if we can all do just a little it helps. As I said I will look up Eugene Bell. Please keep me posted on what you find out in the way of helping. You are a good man trying to do something!

If they aren't feeding their people, and the majority of it is spent on their military/weapons programs, couldn't we just refuse to give them aid?

Would the regime cave-in on itself without aid? Isn't this the resolution that most people are hoping for? A non military resolution, I mean.

In response to your comment about withdrawing aid, here's the afterward from Kang Chol-Hwan's memoir The Aquariums of Pyongyang: Ten Years in the North Korean Gulag, a book everyone interested in this topic should read...

At present, I want to work on behalf of the unfortunate souls attempting to flee repression and famine. All of us, we and the government, must be more active. We are the brothers it seems, but our sisters are being bought and sold at the border. Are we to continue showing such restraint? The shortages of food, energy and medicine are serious. According to anecdotal reports by journalists, there have been countless victims. Estimates are that famine will cause between 1 and 3 million deaths. No more accurate number is available, because no one has penetrated the North Korean bunker deeply enough to perform an adequate study. Anyone who has stood as I have beside a person slowly dying of hunger - who has seen this horror with his own eyes - will never linger to debate the pros and cons of food aid. The only real question is one of distribution, Who knows how much aid is siphoned off to buttress the army? One often hears such objections, even among people who want to see more food go to the North.
It's true that in North Korea the army comes first. But it is not a professional army cut off from the rest of the population. It is made up entirely of volunteers - legions of them. Frequently the requests outnumber the openings. The backgrounds of the volunteers explain their enthusiasm. Many of them are the children of peasants, for whom the army is a first step to entering the Party. The poorest families enlist their children because they know they will get food and clothing there. The army also represents an opportunity to climb the social: thirty percent of all veterans go on to enter the university.
Another argument against offering aid is that even when it's not diverted to the army, it allows the regime to save its foreign currency, which it should be spending on cereals - for weapons purchases and sumptuous feasts in honor of the country's leaders. Here is the dilemma one always faces when trying to help a population that has fallen victim to famine-causing political and economic systems: aiding the population also means maintaining the regime.
The question of aid, whether of food or anything else, is not primary; rather, priority should eb given to receiving those who escape and according them protection under the law. More work also must be done to introduce the people of North Korea to the outside world, and the outside world to North Korea. International public opinion and world leaders should be pressed to become more conscious of the North Korean tragedy and to force Kim Jong-il (though the leader is now Kim Jong-un) to change his behavior or risk being condemned by an international court.
I did not join in the exaltation shared by many South Koreans during the recent summit between North and South Korea. One has to be naive to believe that Kim Jong-ils smile and affability as a host signal any real change in a dictatorial regime without equal in the modern world - a place where the population has been kept in a constant state of terror for decades. If Kim Jong-il is smiling, it is because he is sure of his grip on power and plans to continue exercising it with the same contempt he has always had for the most basic human rights.
Swimming against the tide of public opinion, I've attempted to explain - most notably in the July 2000 issue of the magazine Chosun - that Kim Jong-ils friendliness in calculated. He feigned desire for greater openness has the same end as his years of calculated reclusion: to deepen and expand his own mythification. I also explained that reunification with the North as it stands today is impossible. South Korea is a democratic country, a place where power lies with the people. In the North, people lead a pathetic existence given entirely to the Party and Kim Jong-il, who confiscates power for his own ends. The only acceptable reunification is one that grants North Koreans the freedom to lead a life worthy of human beings. They are now dying of hunger without the right to utter a word of protest, crushed by a system that walks all over their fundamental human rights.
We are told that the answer to these little problems - the respect for human rights, the concentration camps, the kidnapping of South Korean and Japanese citizens - currently is not of primary concern. We are told that this debate would be better left for another day, that the North Koreans' lot should improve before we undertake reunification; but by then they'll all be dead!
Reunification in inevitable, but it can only take place once Pyongyang has stopped crucifying the population under its control. How can we stand by while troops of orphans cross the Yalu and Tumen rivers seeking refuge in China? How can we stand by while parents sell their daughters for something to eat? I don't want to see any more skeletal children with wide, frightened eyes. I don't want any more children sent to the camps and their mothers forced to tell them stories - and their giggles interrupted by the arrival of the bureaucrats from the Security Force.

...You're right to say that the aid question is something of a dilema, but I would tend to agree more with Kang Chol-Hwan than with those who say we should withdraw aid.

Just one thought here. ( Maybe more than one:)) If you got into the so coveted NK Army, would you not stand WITH it if some type of revolt began? I would imagine that the army would be more loyal to the government who feeds it , and feeds it well, than the people. I am just guessing that this ARMY , unlike some in history, would not turn against the government of the Kims. And again without technology or communication there is little hope of something like an Arab spring happening there. As for reunification, no hope for that. The dynasty would never give up their power. There would be so many impediments to overcome before that could even be thinkable. This would NOT be anything like a reunification of East and West Germany.

You're right about this not being comparable to German reunification. I don't think the North Korean government is likely to take real steps towards reunification because once they crawl out of their shell judges and courts will be after them for crimes against humanity. Where can figures in the North Korean leadership go after a potential reunification? They can only exist within the world they have created for themselves.
Many North Koreans will still believe in the godliness of the Kim dynasty because most of them only have state propaganda to go on. There are some encouraging signs though, only a few days ago a North Korean soldier escaped across the border with SK (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pa...). This gives us a hint that there is some disaffection among the military class in NK and as long as famine continues in the country this disaffection can only grow. The dictatorship used to feed the population in return for their servility, they cannot do this anymore.
Information from within the country isn't always reliable though. It will be quite interesting to see what the defecting soldier in the article i linked to above says about attitudes in the military class on the southern border. We'll have to wait until he is debriefed though. I'm not sure how long that will take.

Wow, you're certainly well informed on the whole aid debate Sam. These were just questions I found weren't answered from reading the book.

One thing I will say though, is that South Korea likes to appear in favour of reunification, but this attitude is purely for show. The current generation of South Koreans don't even have an opinion on the subject. They tend to not tackle the issue, and seem to care more about the latest Samsung product, than their neighbours. The economy would be ruined, if the South had to suddenly deal with that many refugees. They tend to take the attitude that they are now just separate countries, with reunification being a nice idea, not possible, or even very important.

There's a truth to what you say. They've been separated for so long now, and live in two so ineffably different worlds, that they may not even recognise each other should reunification occur. But i don't think it's right to expect South Korea alone to shoulder the burden of a refugee crisis, this is an international humanitarian issue. But i think you're right when you say that most countries and governments would rather look the other way. Isn't that always the way though? Our own governments aren't going to do much until they're forced to, either by us or by an unexpected collapse of the North Korean regime.

There is really little we can do as individuals. One thing we should do however is to start realising how lucky we are.

Most of the food is imported as food aid into the country, and there is a constant food shortage. Constant blackouts, likely that outside Pyongyang there will be limited heating within the houses, hundreds of concentration camps, and atrocities carried out on a daily basis. Unfortunately, if we go in and attempt to force the current system out, a violent war may very likely occur. Though North Korea from a humanitarian angle, are a country in crisis, having little or no infrastructure, and they need something to change.

For anyone who wants to read it here's the much publicised recent UN Commission on human rights abuses in North Korea: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/...

The likelyhood of the North Korean government implementing any of the major recommendations at the end of the report is depressingly slim, as is the likelyhood that the UN Security Council, due to the Chinese veto, will refer them to the International Criminal Court.

It would appear then that 'we' can do very little, other than to learn about the facts and spread awareness in the hope that China will stop protecting the North Korean government.

The only other way of affecting change within North Korea itself would be to break down the information cordon into the country. The author of the above report had one suggestion, which was that the BBC World Service establish a Korean Service which could be listened to by North Koreans with illegal radios.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/med...

This is one proposal which 'we' can possible help bring about and which may make a difference.