Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy discussion

What did Karla mean by "the last illusion of an illusionless man"?

Caution: this can be a Spoiler question.

Smiley's hope that Anne would eventually stop screwing around on him, realising he loved her truly, madly, deeply?

I think the character of Anne is way underwritten, it's hard to get a real grasp on her and maybe that's the point.

Karla certainly picked up on how much GS loved her and used it.

The "last illusion" meant his perception of Bill Haydon as the Englishman extraordinaire, for whom the normal rules do not apply. Smiley knew about the affair but like many of his espionage peers, put Haydon on a pedestal and held him up as a paragon.

Anne wrote:
I think the character of Anne is way underwritten, it's hard to get a real grasp ..."

Le Carre is not great with women characters generally. By his standards Anne is actually quite a well-drawn female character.

I agree with you, Ian. I've seen several interviews with Le Carre and find the way he talks about his characters to be charming. He has said that sometimes he writes a character into a story, and the character gets inside his head and demands a bigger part in thew next story. Note that in "Spy Who Came In From The Cold" George Smiley gets two paragraphs. But I agree that his weakest point is women characters. Connie Sachs is a very well developed character, but she is really a male character with gender switched. Take the pomposity out of Percy Alaline and you have Connie.

My guess is simply that Karla means that all man have illusions so by definition a man without illusion (illusionless man) is an illusion.

Angie wrote: "What did Karla mean by "the last illusion of an illusionless man"?

Caution: this can be a Spoiler question."

I haven't thought about it until now, but this is so right about his women characters. Perhaps that's why The Little Drummer Girl didn't work for me, nor some of his lesser female characters in other books. He doesn't really like them much, although he has tried harder lately.
I would say, though, that for me Connie Sachs is clearly identified, not as male, but as having a younger lesbian lover in Smiley's People, which is not the same thing.
I also see Percy as far less straight, noble and intellectually strong than Connie, pomposity or not. He's very precious, to the point of foolishness, about his security, bureaucracy and procedure. She'd have no time for all of that if she were in charge.

Maybe Le Carre has trouble writing strong women characters because he is a misogynist?

I read his latest book, but not the 3 that preceded, but having read almost all that came before I would be hard pressed to name a single female character who is a strong positive character.

(Aside from the main character in Drummer Girl which was a flop of a book.)

They are generally weak people, not very smart, very naïve and ditzy - or they are slutty. They lack the honor that his male characters have.

The only female character with any substance is in the Spy Who Came in from the Cold. She caused the downfall of a good man. She had a silly belief in communism - which is how she got lured behind the Iron Curtain and showed up at the show trial. Alec Leamas found her beliefs amusing in the typical English condescending smug fashion.

Women in his novels are indulged and tolerated. They rarely play a significant role. He leaves them out of his books because he can't write them. Maybe he knows he can't write strong women characters in a positive way because of his out-of-date thinking so he is smart enough not to try.

Le Carre's views and treatment of women in his novels are outrageously sexist and misogynist.

What I find odd is that he gets away with it and the politically correct aren't all over him for it.

It's difficult to comprehend how anyone can call Drummer Girl "a flop of a book." It was, of course, not only commercially successful but is treasured by many as LeCarre's best work after "Cold" and "Tinker," and is thought by some to be his supreme accomplishment. The idea that he is misogynist is as absurd as the idea that, as some say, he is anti-Semitic, suggesting that his portrayal of the Palestinians is more generous than his portrayal of the Israelis, which is ridiculous. He unquestionably has some of the misogyny and anti-Semitism common to his class in England. But he notably works hard against whatever bias his class inflicts on him. His pubic statements on the Palestinians are typical of many British intellectuals and often unsympathetic to Israel. But Kurtz in Drummer Girl is without question heroic and humane. LeCarre makes clear how difficult it is for Kurtz to kill in the line of duty. As for women, in many of his books they play a minor role for the most obvious of reasons; in his generation the spy establishment was a boy's club. To write about women as significant in that establishment would feel false. But to suggest that he is misogynist based on "Cold" ignores even the minor female characters in, say, Drummer Girl. The women in Kurtz's crew have the toughness, intelligence, and wit of Kurtz himself and are in every way the equal of the men, even if their roles are smaller. There is one exchange between Charlie and the woman guarding her when she goes to the bathroom that leaves no doubt as to what LeCarre feels about women. As for Ann Smiley, she is a woman of her time and her class and is drawn as such. Her role in the books is small but her role in George's life and consciousness can't be underestimated. She is a presence throughout even when she isn't actually there. Her being adulterous is hardly a condemnation. LeCarre is sympathetic to the sexual and marital foibles of all of his characters. Adultery in his world hardly condemns a woman. Charlie, his only significant female protagonist after "Cold," is originally painted as foolish, but she is also painted as indelibly shrewd and also humane. It is her very humanity that Kurtz counts on and he turns out to be right to do so. LeCarre embodies the contradictions of his generation and his class and his nationality. But to simplify him as "a misogynist" does him a disservice, and may drive readers away from a writer whose work will survive the test of time. His work will be read long, long after he is gone.

Your views are wildly moronic. They bespeak an infantile-level, talk-show-influenced, naive view of the world. Outrageous imbecility. You come into a John leCarre thread and call him names? Kiss my grits.

Tom wrote: "Maybe Le Carre has trouble writing strong women characters because he is a misogynist?..."

Hate to tell ya pal but 'misogyny' is alive and well, firmly part of institutions and cultures all around the world. Are you blind?

Tom wrote: "..but having read almost all that came before I would be hard pressed to name a single female character who is a strong positive character...."

Then you're not a very cognizant or competent reader. LeCarre accurately described British culture of the 1960s where women (unfortunately) had very defined roles in a very male society. I put it to you that you are not capable in the slightest to say where he wrote at all, inappropriately for the timeperiod in question. Frankly, you make me fecking sick. The simple truth of the espionage field is that women have never held positions of power; its a fundamental truth of the business. It doesn't matter that it's not 'correct'; 'correctness; is for civilians. Civilians do not run these areas of the government.

Tom wrote: "(Aside from the main character in Drummer Girl which was a flop of a book.)..."

So LeCarre wrote an entire novel centered around an idealistic and resourceful female character and it's not good enough for you? Pray tell what he might have to do to convince you? What the heck does the book's success have to do with his intention in writing it? Stick with television. Your logic makes sense in that realm but not outside it.

Tom wrote: "They are generally weak people, not very smart, very naïve and ditzy - or they are slutty. They lack the honor that his male characters have...."

Anne Smiley is not; Liz Worth is not; Charlie is not; Nan Perry is not; Elsa Fennan is not; Molly Meakin is not; Connie Sachs is not; Helen is not. How many more names do you need? These are all fine fictional concoctions. What would you prefer, Bond girls?

In what way were these characters supposed to have especial honor in the field of espionage? Espionage is a carryover from wartime in which men fought and it is the profession in which fighting men occupy themselves between wars. Where is there even a place for military honor, for a fictional female character? You're just spewing gibberish.

Tom wrote: "The only female character with any substance is in the Spy Who Came in from the Cold. She caused the downfall of a good man. She had a silly belief in communism ..."

Her belief was not silly in the slightest. You're ludicrously uninformed. Communism--at its core--has some of the noblest ideas of any political system.

Tom wrote: "- which is how she got lured behind the Iron Curtain and showed up at the show trial. ..."

Thanks for the unnecessary recap. How does it help your point?

Tom wrote: "Alec Leamas found her beliefs amusing in the typical English condescending smug fashion...."

You're a jackass and moreover, you're a jackass who plainly didn't even grasp the relationship between the figures in this narrative. You have no standing to comment on LeCarre whatsoever, based on your remarks so far.

Tom wrote: "Women in his novels are indulged and tolerated. They rarely play a significant role...."

False. Anne Smiley is the key to George Smiley's whole life.

Tom wrote: "He leaves them out of his books because he can't write them...."

False. They are the linchpins to just about every one of his works.

Tom wrote: "Maybe he knows he can't write strong women characters in a positive way because of his out-of-date thinking so he is smart enough not to try...."

Out-of-date? According to who? You? Your thinking compared to his is positively medieval in stupidity. You're the last person to 'date' his thinking.

Tom wrote: "LeCarre's views and treatment of women in his novels are outrageously sexist and misogynist. What I find odd is that he gets away with it and the politically correct aren't all over him for it...."

No more outrageous than your rampant incompetence on display when sizing up whatever he has done in his writing. Please stop embarrassing yourself, with this PC nonsense. You're not even good at calling out some supposed 'problem' adequately.

LeCarre is as fine a writer today as he ever was. The problem is you. You're simply not observant as to how the world functions, then or now. You work in a service industry or something?

Feliks wrote: "Tom wrote: "Women in his novels are indulged and tolerated. They rarely play a significant role...."

False. Anne Smiley is the key to George Smiley's whole life.

Tom wrote: "He leaves them out of his books because he can't write them...."

False. They are the linchpins to just about every one of his works.

Tom wrote: "Maybe he knows he can't write strong women characters in a positive way because of his out-of-date thinking so he is smart enough not to try...."

Out-of-date? According to who? You? Your thinking compared to his is positively medieval in stupidity. You're the last person to 'date' his thinking."

Tessa.freakin.Quayle.

You work in a service industry or something?

HEY HEY WOAH BUDDY. DONT YOU DARE haha

Those willing to review their judgement that Le Carré is a misogynist should read his latest novels: A Delicate Truth, The Constant Gardener, Our Kind of Traitor, Our Game.

Angie wrote: "What did Karla mean by "the last illusion of an illusionless man"?

Caution: this can be a Spoiler question."

For the original question of the thread, Smiley himself isn't sure what Karla had meant. I think it is most likely related to the conversation that Smiley and Karla had years ago when Smiley was attempting to recruit Karla (at the time using the name Gerstmann) to the West. In particular, it may be related to Smiley's monologue where he says:

'Look', I said, 'we're getting to be old men, and we've spent our lives looking for the weaknesses in one another's systems. I can see through Eastern values just as you can see through our Western ones. Both of us, I am sure, have experienced ad nauseam the technical satisfactions of this wretched war. But now your own side is going to shoot you. Don't you think it's time to realize that there is as little worth on your side as there is on mine ?"

During the meeting, it seems like Smiley and possibly also Karla possessed no illusions that somehow one side is ideologically superior than the other. Smiley, even at the time when he met with Karla (aka Gerstmann), no longer had the rose-colored glasses about the spy business. Karla, in his comment about the "illusionless man" probably agreed with Smiley's assessment.

At the same meeting, Smiley also gave Karla the lighter that mentioned Ann's name, so Karla knew of the special significance that Ann had in Smiley's life; Smiley's only illusion given Ann's infidelities.