On Tyrants & Tributes : Real World Lessons From The Hunger Games discussion

Spoilers:

In 15th video Prof Amy Sturgis says that the "Ultimate War" in the The Hunger Games is over propaganda. Considering the events that take place in "The Mockingjay" this seems fitting. However I'm not sure if this is "the ultimate war". I felt that even though the fight between the governments was one over propaganda, the fight of Katniss and Peeta was one purely of individualism. I thought they were just fighting to choose there own lives for themselves and be left alone by the capital.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

http://www.mentormob.com/learn/i/on-t...

The fight between governments may have been waged with propaganda, but it wasn't OVER propaganda. The war was for the hearts and minds of the people, either through fear and intimidation, or through indignation and outrage.

That said, I think that even the individual battles end up being pieces of what Katniss decides to do. After all, what happens in the wider world is but the decisions made by all the people in it.

Could the rebels have won without a Mockingjay? Maybe, although it's hard to say there would have been such a linchpin as that.

I just don't think those are necessarily unconnected.

I really want to be able to "like" comments. Not just this one but for a lot of what is being discussed in this group.

I've thought the same thing. :)
Andre wrote: "I really want to be able to "like" comments. Not just this one but for a lot of what is being discussed in this group."

Joseph wrote: "The fight between governments may have been waged with propaganda, but it wasn't OVER propaganda. The war was for the hearts and minds of the people, either through fear and intimidation, or through indignation and outrage."

Well said! You put this far better than I did, Joseph! This indeed strikes the heart of what I was attempting to convey. "Via" would have been a better choice than "over" - it was the means and method used to fight for the hearts and minds of the citizens.

I think that you guys are right. For Katniss and Peeta it wasn't propaganda that made them start to stand up against Snow. But that being said I do think that it wasn't just a fight for independence that motivated them. I think it was a combination of fighting for their independence and liberty. Because if you think about Katniss didn't just want to be able to make her own choices and be left alone, she wanted to be able to do and say what she wanted without worrying about the repercussions that would bring.

Michelle wrote: "I've thought the same thing. :)
Andre wrote: "I really want to be able to "like" comments. Not just this one but for a lot of what is being discussed in this group.""

Is flagging a comment equivalent to liking it?

Lol NOPE! Just the opposite. You can flag comments for "abuse".

Propaganda needs the fire behind it to successfully take off the movement.

For those people in the districts that were not alive 74-76 years ago, isn't the propaganda critical to ensuring that they don't act on any of their outrage or individualism? They didn't experience it directly, so the propaganda of Panem acts as the means of oppression for many years.

District 13 then twisted the actions of the Peeta and Katniss via their Propo's in order to bend the will of the people to their needs. The rebellion needed the people to help rise up. This is why it was so critical for the rebellion to be able to take over State media and disseminate their information.

Whoever controls the information controls the people. I think this is why it can be considered the Ultimate war. thoughts?

Joseph wrote: "The fight between governments may have been waged with propaganda, but it wasn't OVER propaganda. The war was for the hearts and minds of the people, either through fear and intimidation, or throug..."

What we learn in Mockingjay is not only the history of District 13, but how it uses its power in its own way (as opposed to the Capitol) to become just as tyrannical as the Capitol. Both sides are guilty of using propaganda. Is that bad? Not necessarily. In real life, why is propaganda used? It gets people decisions by trying to appeal to their emotions (for the most part). The human mind has not evolved to process as much logistical information that we experience in the modern age. This can be seen in advertisements - that's why a lot of sex and food is used, it appeals to our primitive beings.

It is an interesting thought of whether or not District 13 (and the others) would have won without Katniss. She was, afterall, the Mockingjay, and the star of the propaganda videos. However, President Coin did not originally want to save her. Ask yourself: was Coin so obsessed with keeping her power (since that is revealed why she feels threatened by Katniss) that she was willing to have a greater possibility of losing the war?

If this was really a battle over propaganda, then it must show that District 13 felt they had to "prove" that they were the "good guys." I'm not sure if the citizens of Panem were all too aware of the atrocities District 13 committed as we were - I guess it all depends on whether or not they in turn believed in what Peeta said on television and the Capitol's own videos. Keep in mind that not every citizen was as aware as Katniss was, meaning that people (even in the districts) could be more pro-Capitol or rebellion-resistant than she was.

Propaganda is no different than any other type of advertising, there has to be some truth to it. Florida can call itself "The Sunshine State" because it is the warmest and furthest south of the continental states. If Maine, instead, was using that phrase to promote tourism it wouldn't work.

Propaganda stops working when the either the becomes larger than what the truth can hide or the people have been exposed long enough that they see through the vial of truth.

I would say propaganda was one of the biggest weapons in turning the society to what it become, but may be not fully the reason either. If anyone don't know anything about Edward Bernays they should learn about him. He was the big man behind, Propaganda!

I've just finished watching the entire playlist and found it great to watch. It was well presented and put together.

Propaganda seems to be a big problem even in our society as it is today. So many people try to defend the actions of the state just because that's how they were brought up. If i'm talking with somebody about whether taxation is theft or not, they more often than not appeal to a 'social contract'. This has just been embedded in their heads with propaganda and 12 years in government schools, and many people working directly for the government.

The propaganda reminded me of the Reichstag Fire Decree, Hitler's first act of power in which he suspended pretty much all of the civilians right to free speech, free press, firearms, right to a trial and etc all in the name of security from 'state endangering communists'.

The fight for Katniss may have been for individualism, but her battle is fought with propaganda, both for her, against her and by her. Ironically, having to be The Mockingjay interferes with her own freedom, as she's fighting the war. Of course, when she's taken to war zones, she pretty much ignores instruction and goes off to achieve her own goals.

I really don't think this is about propaganda but something deeper than that. I believe the fundamental war in the Hunger Games is trust with archetypes. The reason why I say it is the war against archetypes is that I would take action more to an account than what the people think or hear. I would already assume that people either know it is propaganda or that it is something people really don't care about, as long as it doesn't involve them. Most people don't care about the propaganda but of living their lives even if they keep hearing or seeing, but behaviors effect people more than what advertisements could really do. The government could spew out all the propaganda and if there no action that is being done to coerce people into doing what they want, people generally don't care. I would say that because of the people actually being coerced through the force from the police force is that people are acting back due to knowing that they have and will do those types of actions multiple times. The only way to subdue people into not taking these actions is to justify their actions through an excuse. Most people who aren't intelligent would think that oh they have an excuse to justify what they have to do so their actions were just. The archetypes of the state have acted to provide something so that people don't have to think about the actual intent of the actions of force. Its just like when people get spanked, people in society thinks that spanking is ok but that it is assault on a baby or toddler. There is some type of relation their and usually people who aren't as educated would think that. The small proportion of the population who do have intelligence or at least like to question the narrative from the archetypes of the state (statesmen or people who serves the states). The war is with trusting these people who plays the role of the statesmen or the role of the police. Eventually, the trust factors will have to come from people who serves the states to the very statesmen themselves to trust whether the narrative of the state or archetype of power is something beneficial to the person in charge. The society will determine the war between the trust of people vs the archetype of the men people in charge.

Greg wrote: "Propaganda is no different than any other type of advertising, there has to be some truth to it. Florida can call itself "The Sunshine State" because it is the warmest and furthest south of the co..."

Great point!

Brandon wrote: "Greg wrote: "Propaganda is no different than any other type of advertising, there has to be some truth to it. Florida can call itself "The Sunshine State" because it is the warmest and furthest so..."

or because of the orange juice:)

I think that one of the main reasons that propaganda was so successful in Panem was that the districts were so separated. Since there was no way to communicate between districts, people were isolated and propaganda would therefore be much more effective.